some questions regarding FREE WILL?

[MacM]

MacM,

Please refrain from insults as i am doing.

Great as soon as you can explain to me how you find being called "obtuse" an insult. If you don't understand the meaning of the word:

Webster:
Obtuse: (3) Slow to understand or percieve.

I can certainly come up with other harsher words to describe what I have seen here.

The length of the thread is of no importance, you do not need to read it. But if you add to it then expect it to grow.

I agree length is not a stand alone criteria. But length of irrelevant or distorted claims becomes a bit much.

As for your method of dealing with "Islamic radicals", it is no better than their methods, it only increases senseless violence by creating more radicals.

It is called attrition. There are many more of us then them. We will not sit back and take pot shots. We will not cuddle up and beg nor patronize them. They attacked. They will stop attacking or they will die. It is really quite a simple concept and has absolute results.

However, in the post to which i responded to your defiant threat of the kill! kill! killing of these so-called "stupid animals, the object of your rancor were people (animals) who kill in the name of their god. And the reason for this orgy of this intended violence was to make the world devoid of "such pathetic creations."

What did you mean by "such pathetic creations?"

Seems clear to me but I'll try to clarify. Any creature, even human that goes about killing totally innocent men, women and children, that are just going to work or playing, in the name of their God, simply cannot be tolerated to be left alive on this earth. Not if we aim to have a civilized society.

They are pathetic creations. Beyond hope. Beyond salvation and rehabilitation. Uncivilized animals - not true intelligent human beings. Wild animals are to be killed.

But are they killing in the name of God?
Can you give evidence where they have?

I don't have to they have by their own statements. Ever hear the term Jihad? Ever hear the term "Infidel"? Give me a break you can't possibly be this niave or confused on this issue.

 

[Jan Ardena]

MacM,

Great as soon as you can explain to me how you find being called "obtuse" an insult. If you don't understand the meaning of the word:

I understand the meaning of the word, thank you very much. There is nothing slow or dull-witted about my enquiry regarding your murderous intentions and deep-seated hatred toward certain people.

I can certainly come up with other harsher words to describe what I have seen here.

I've no doubt you can, judging by the intense hatred you have casually revealed in this thread.

I agree length is not a stand alone criteria. But length of irrelevant or distorted claims becomes a bit much.

Nothing is distorted, it is based entirely on what you have posted. The reason for my step by step enquirey is to make sure i do not misunderstand your intent.

Any creature, even human that goes about killing totally innocent men, women and children, that are just going to work or playing, in the name of their God, simply cannot be tolerated to be left alive on this earth.

You've yet to show that these people kill purely in the name of their god and for no other reason.

They are pathetic creations. Beyond hope. Beyond salvation and rehabilitation.

If your analasys is correct, then i agree with you 100%

I don't have to they have by their own statements.

That doesn't answer my question. Where have they given "in the name of their god" purely as a reason for killing.

Ever hear the term Jihad? Ever hear the term "Infidel"?

Yes i have.

Give me a break you can't possibly be this niave or confused on this issue.

On this matter i am neither naive or confused, although i understand your need to put me in that category.
You can easily justify your rancor by showing examples of people killing purely in the name of their god, without any other reason. Or you can try and worm your way out of (what can only be described as) your disgusting attitude, by trying to focus on me thereby by diverting attention from yourself.

Jan Ardena.

 

[duendy]

you are not the only one with ddep feelings of shock, outrage, sadness, despair, when you see people comitting terrorist acts on other humans. that recent outrage where so many children have been horribly killed, maimed. psychologically scarred for life, i cant even read about. When a similar happening happned at Dunblane a few years back i was left feel traumatized. so this time i am avoiding reading about it or looking at images

so what de we do as humans being observers of this. of course a natrual reaction is to call the ones who do it 'animals' and want their blood. but to me that is becoming part of the problem not a vision for solution to the problem

for example, if you point the finger at that behaviour, it means you have stopped being aware of your part in this. your government, and your apathy. are telling me that so-called 'decent' governments aren't committing terrorist acts. let me inform you tha this recent war gulf war 2 was illegal, and based on a lie--of looking for WMD. in the process the USA and UK have dropped hundreds of tons of depleted uranium on men women and childen. images of which you will rarely see--ie, the aftermath, and the resulting maimings, and diseases from the nuclear poison. depleted uranium also poisons soil, water, air, and regions far away from the actual impact of the bombs. if anything was a 'weapon of mass destruction' it is that

so as you sit, satisfied in your western modern world, being given drivel propaganda by your news, and feelingall righteously indignant about other's evil, think on what your own culture has come from. genocide of Native Americans, Vietnam, the Crusades, etc etc...it is non-ending

what i am saying is, that the way out of this never ending conflict is to look at it differently. see what YOU ar caught up in...what belief systems etc, beforre you point the finger and scapegoat

 

[davewhite04]

Now if God had decided not to create those vessels (people) who He knew where going to reject Him, then what would that have done to the future? Don't the people who reject Him also form an integral part of History? Of course they do. God has endured with much longsuffering the people who reject him for those that have accepted Him... Because to have people who accept him with free will you need another option and that is rejection. So Yes God created people who knew where going to reject Him and He created people who He knew where going to accept Him. But he has given all men the free will to do as they wish. Gods knowledge of whom will reject and whom will accept does not come from Him making one person accept and making another reject. His knowledge comes from His foreknowledge That is He can see all history all at one time. Time as we know it in this universe is a part of Gods creation. God is not limited by the physical laws of this universe nor is He restricted to the laws of time in this universe. The Creator is not confined by what He has created. God has created a system where mankind can have a choice. The choice is still the individuals choice. So God is not responsible for the individuals choice.

Hello Adstar,

How do you reconcile your thoughts above with what Jesus said below:

Matthew 18
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Now I believe the sheep refers to mankind, do you?

Dave

 

[MacM]

for example, if you point the finger at that behaviour, it means you have stopped being aware of your part in this. your government, and your apathy. are telling me that so-called 'decent' governments aren't committing terrorist acts. let me inform you tha this recent war gulf war 2 was illegal, and based on a lie--of looking for WMD.

in the process the USA and UK have dropped hundreds of tons of depleted uranium on men women and childen. images of which you will rarely see--ie, the aftermath, and the resulting maimings, and diseases from the nuclear poison. depleted uranium also poisons soil, water, air, and regions far away from the actual impact of the bombs. if anything was a 'weapon of mass destruction' it is that

so as you sit, satisfied in your western modern world, being given drivel propaganda by your news,

This is great. You conclude that we somehow asked for and deserve being attacked.

You then talk about not accepting propaganda and you inturn display that you have and are speaking from a view of propaganda.

I.E. - Show us one damn ounce of radioactive material dumped on anyone since WWII. Yes some armor is made of uranium for its physical qualities such as strength to weight ratio but it is not radioactive.

Please show us how this armor in and of itself (not the bomb it housed) has harmed even one person, much less ******** large areas of the world.

You can even call the perpatraitors of the mass killing of Russian children in a school house "Freedom Fighters" for that is what they are but they are employing terrorists tactics, so that makes them terroists. There is NO justification for such an act. Politics can not justify the mass killing of innocent people.

You are simply wrong on this.

 

[MacM]

MacM, I understand the meaning of the word, thank you very
much. There is nothing
slow or dull-witted about my enquiry regarding your murderous intentions and
deep-seated hatred toward certain people.

1 - You again exaggerate to suit your own case to argue. Show me where I
used the term "Dull-Witted".

2 - Being forced to take firm action in a manner of self-defense requires no
hatered. I bare no hatered of a given group of people. If a man in a bar
walks up and without provacation or discussion of anykind, punches me in the
mouth, I do not hate him when I beat the crap out of him, perhaps killing
the bastard.

I've no doubt you can, judging by the intense hatred you have
casually
revealed in this thread.

Covered above.

Nothing is distorted, it is based entirely on what you have posted.
The
reason for my step by step enquirey is to make sure i do not misunderstand
your intent.

Well, you clearly have misnderstood and hence your posts are distorted.

You've yet to show that these people kill purely in the name of their
god
and for no other reason.

Oh, so that in your mind could make a difference? That they might have some
other reasons other than their religion? The act is the problem, it is not
justified for whatever, percieved justification. I would think this is the
sort of distortion I reference in your posts. You are obtuse. "Slow" to
learn and accept facts. I dare say there are very few that do not know the
expressions of Jihad and Infidel and that would go about searching for some
other reason than the ones they have so clearly stated.

If your analasys is correct, then i agree with you 100%

Well, this is a surprise, other than I suspect you will give us a long
debate about how we don't know they can't be rehabilitated and should turn
the other cheek and try to accomadate their beliefs so as to disarm their
Jihad. NO THANK YOU. And this is not a predjudice toward muslims. I will
kill Christians too, if they should employe murder and terror to cram their
crap down our throat as well.

Now you want to accuse me of hate. OK but I don't really consider it hate,
however, I do detest and despise ALL man made and advocated religions.

That doesn't answer my question. Where have they given "in the name
of their
god" purely as a reason for killing.

Covered above.

Yes i have.

Then why ask the question.

On this matter i am neither naive or confused, although i understand
your
need to put me in that category.

I see you choose to ignore the issue of Jihad and Infidel which ansewred
your question and choose instead to try and turn the tables by suggesting
rather casually that somehow your view is correct and mine suggest I be
labled as naive or confused. Be advised this tatic only works on those that
can't organize their thoughts. I am afraid your mud doesn't stick to the
wall.

You can easily justify your rancor by showing examples of people
killing
purely in the name of their god, without any other reason. Or you can try
and worm your way out of (what can only be described as) your disgusting
attitude, by trying to focus on me thereby by diverting attention from
yourself.

See what I mean folks. When in a losing corner the best defense is an
offense. She ignores the clearly stated Jihad, Infidel issue which is the
very answer to her question and then claims fowl that somehow I am attacking
her and avoiding the question. This tune don't play my dear. Try another
one.

 

[mario]

Tit for tat. An eye for an eye. My, we are so civilized by killing innocent people and children. No wonder the little green men from alpha-centauri would rather watch us from the skies, fearing that they might get infected.

 

[Light Travelling]

just interested, as someone had said you were an atheist, but became a believe. which is interesting only because it's impossible (you could not have been a true atheist)

Our English word "Hell" appears in the Old Testament Scriptures thirty-one times.
The Hebrew word "Sheol" appears in the Old Testament in all sixty-five times.
and the greek word "Hades" is used to translate the Hebrew word "Sheol"
are we reading the same bible

Here's a theory for you.

We are in hell now!

Lets look at the evidence;

Hell is a a place where people are tormented day and night by their own desires. They burn in a fire of eternal suffering. They are tormented by demons and are ruled over by the devil.

Hang on, Here on EARTH we are constantly tormented by desire, life is all suffering, we all suffer constantly from physical longings and desires and burn with passion. We all have our personal demons to torment us and who is the ruler of this world - well the bible says it is the devil.

Sounds like hell to me.

So, what does this mean. When we die, if we fail to do enough good deeds, or do too many bad, god sends us to hell (i.e. back here to earth). If we do enough good, we come back to earth no more, but go to heaven (nirvanna).

Hang on a minute, that sounds like the Hindu / Buddhist theory of reincarnation. Could this be the link between Eastern and western religion !!

No..........................well its a theory anyway.

 

[duendy]

Here's a theory for you.

We are in hell now!

Lets look at the evidence;

Hell is a a place where people are tormented day and night by their own desires. They burn in a fire of eternal suffering. They are tormented by demons and are ruled over by the devil.

Hang on, Here on EARTH we are constantly tormented by desire, life is all suffering, we all suffer constantly from physical longings and desires and burn with passion. We all have our personal demons to torment us and who is the ruler of this world - well the bible says it is the devil.

Sounds like hell to me.

So, what does this mean. When we die, if we fail to do enough good deeds, or do too many bad, god sends us to hell (i.e. back here to earth). If we do enough good, we come back to earth no more, but go to heaven (nirvanna).

Hang on a minute, that sounds like the Hindu / Buddhist theory of reincarnation. Could this be the link between Eastern and western religion !!

No..........................well its a theory anyway.

sorr y you feel like this. wanna talk about it..........? hehe.....seriously though, i know what you mean

atually that idea of this here being hell is -in Westen thought, coming from Orphism, which itself was influenced by Eastern metaphysical ideas

its basic belief is that Nature and the body is a trap which entombs the 'divine spark' which needs to get back to the 'divine spiritua; source/heaven', and thus the only way to achieve this is to listen to the men (who have made this story up, abeit beliving it..shhhh) who are the eltie of the cultic belief, so as to gain 'putification' through rituals and eventually become 'pure' and shed the physical body and Nature and return to source.
in the East it is similarly described though using differnt language and variations. spo we have the concept of 'Maya', whch means -as popularly understood- that Nature is illusory and an enticing trap whcih tries to keep the meale from his true dstiny, Atman-Brahama. Nirvana etc

we agree that both want o escape here, Nature. and both demand a belief in 'karma'. the idea that getting to the 'source' may take lifetimes of purification

all this idea is patriarchal. it is revealing a deep fear of the feminine, which is associationed with Nature, and all the 'messiness' of life, which includes disease and death

what this mindest doesn't usually consider is its PART in making life here a misery. ie., the patriarchal mindset loves wars, and oppressing people, and 'order'. so it thus makes for itself a very oppressive sense of life. wher no fun, play, ecstasy, and equality are allowed unless astrctly accprding to their interpretation of what that means

this midset is a coninuation through the generations. you dont necessarily only hae to focus on the past. you can see exactly the same modified right now. how peoples 'leisure' time is manipluated towards the States....consumerism.....? drinking oneself into oblivion......?..etceteraa

 

[Light Travelling]

Anyway, to the subject of freewill.

I was sent here by 'audible' from the thread quoted below, where there is more discussion on freewill of a slightly different natue.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45074&page=2&pp=20

I propose a distinction between freedom and freewill. By example;
You make take away my freedom in the strongest way possible. Imprision me and bind me in chains, but this does not remove my freewill - I can still exercise my freewill by disobeying you. Even if this is only a refusal to open my eyes or to eat. I defy you with my will. You may control by body you may control my life but not my will. Will is intent, it is internal and eternal. Lack of freedom can not touch my freewill.

I hold that, a principle that is correct will hold true in any given situation. Therefore, the example I give above is of a physical situation, but this principle can also be applied to religious or spiritual situations. We know the above example is true because it has been proved out a thousand times physically in this world, well documented through history. If then this is a true priniple it will hold true for this argument.

Therefore, whoever is the slave or master the above still holds true. Any slave / master / freewill situation will abide by the same principle.

Ok, so god is master, I am slave. God imprisions me and limits my freedom by religious teaching - the ten commandments etc.. He also imposes penalties for disobeyance and rewards for complaince. I STILL RETAIN MY FREEWILL, I may defy if I so choose, god may punish as much as he likes, but he cannot take away my free will. I choose to follow god or choose to go against him, this is my freewill. Consequences and punishments mean nothing to my freewill. I repeat Will is intent, it is internal and eternal. Lack of freedom can not touch my freewill.

 

[Woody]

Mustafkahofi said :

Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?

The old testament Hell was referred to as sheol.

Here are a couple of OT verses on Hell:

5 Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

6 Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


21 Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

30 Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

26 Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword

 

[Woody]

Mustafkahof said,

Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.

Your question is frequently asked.

I will try to answer it.

Man is not being exactly what God created him to be, and that is the big problem. God created all men to live forever after this life. Man's relationship with God changed in the Garden of Eden. If God annihilates those that are bad, then he made the mistake, because he created man to live forever. Man has a choice with sin, but God does not have a choice with sin. God always loves man, but he can not live with sinful man. Hell is where God puts those that he can not live with, and He is angry about it. He can not turn them to nothing but he can not take them to heaven either, and this is the paradox that an unbeliever is stuck with for eternity.

I know you probably do not understand this and you think it is unfair, unkind, unloving. But remember one thing: the God we Christians believe in died an agonizing death on the cross so people would not have to go to hell. This is not an act of heroism as some would say, rather it is an act of total, selfless love on the part of Jesus.

 

[duendy]

Woody woody, you are like someone who only EVER reads one book, or looks at one film, or eats one meal. how the hell is you gonna know other flavours, some far more older than iffen you dont try somewhere else...
for example, you claim that A peson called Jesus died on the cross so we wouldn't go to hell?

has it ever occurred to you to EXPLRe the whole CONCEPT of 'hell'? see what ideas other cultures had of what happens post mortem. for example do a google search on 'the history of the after life. you may be surprised

these are all tales. some are deeper than others

 

[mustafhakofi]

Man is not being exactly what God created him to be,

of course he is , his life has been pre-ordained and that is the big problem.

God created all men to live forever after this life.

exactly no choice, what if I dont want to live forever.

Man's relationship with God changed in the Garden of Eden.

did you not learn anything from snakelord and audible, regarding this, coerced, forced, pushed.

If God annihilates those that are bad, then he made the mistake, because he created man to live forever.

again no choice,

Man has a choice with sin, but God does not have a choice with sin.

again I refer to snake, aud.

God always loves man,

this is why he kills them so violently.

but he can not live with sinful man.

but he wants them to sin, he caused it.

Hell is where God puts those that he can not live with, and He is angry about it. He can not turn them to nothing but he can not take them to heaven either,

because he enjoys it, he rubs his hands with glee and say "look at those little bastards burn and they did'nt do anything wrong ha, ha, ha".

and this is the paradox that an unbeliever is stuck with for eternity.

I'm an unbeliever and I have no paradox, i'm not going to heaven or hell. their is no eternity for me, thank f''k.

I know you probably do not understand this and you think it is unfair, unkind, unloving. But remember one thing:

yes I understand hence why I'm an atheist, what I dont understand is how you religious lot, cant see the lunacy in it.

the God we Christians believe in died an agonizing death on the cross so people would not have to go to hell. This is not an act of heroism as some would say, rather it is an act of total, selfless love on the part of Jesus.

why, what for sin was brought into the world by god because god wished it.
if jesus existed and if a god created him, he was a hero, he was created as a very wise man.
he was a much decieved by this evil god, as was adam and eve, just so that this vicious god could kill him, to see the effect, it would have on humanity.
and did'nt it have an effect.(sadly)
as I said pre-ordained, this god has a reason for everything. your religion is just hero worship, same as shinto.

 

[Woody]

mustafhakofi

I gotta link for you:

Arminian Forum

There are three points of view on free-will:

• calvinism -- man never had a free-will and never will
• salvation by grace -- free will exists until man's conversion to christianity
• arminianism -- man always has free-will, even after the conversion experience

You are arguing from the calvinist point of view.

Might I suggest you go to the arminian forum and debate free-will to your heart's content. You will get plenty of responses over there. You can post on the forum as a guest.

I no longer frequent that forum. I believe in salvation by grace.

exactly no choice, what if I dont want to live forever.

Neither did you choose to be born in this life, but you are here.

did you not learn anything from snakelord and audible, regarding this, coerced, forced, pushed.

Concerning A&E, Yes, I learned that even very young animals in nature obey the voice of their parents in times of danger, thanks too SL. God asked A&E a simple request, "do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil". He did not ask them not to run in front of a car as in SL's exaggerated example. Adam disobeyed and yet he was given 500 more years to live (more than we get). In the final analysis, A&E's maturity/intelligence is irrelevant in a choice to survive, they chose as small animals to disobey their protector parent's voice (God), and succumbed to the voice of a predator. Hence they fell prey as disobedient babies that left the safety of their loving parent, straying out into the predator's eager jaws.

this is why he kills them so violently.

How do you know that? Has God been tried in court for murder? Jesus was tried. Who did he kill?

because he enjoys it, he rubs his hands with glee and say "look at those little bastards burn and they did'nt do anything wrong ha, ha, ha".

You do not understand the bible, for it is clearly written:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways and live.

"Turn baby chick, turn!" God says, "As sure as I am alive I do not enjoy watching you die!" The baby chick will not turn therefore the predator awaits for the feast with open jaws:

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Your soul is on his dinner menu as he licks his chops. He is one hungry bastard predator, and he waits for you at the grave, like flies frolicking over dung or carrion. His name is Beelzebub, literally "Lord of the Flies".

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow (Jesus) doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

I'm an unbeliever and I have no paradox, i'm not going to heaven or hell. their is no eternity for me, thank f''k.

We are in a paradox today. None of us decided to be born and we all face death. How do you plan to excape death? You did not choose it did you?

what for sin was brought into the world by god because god wished it. if jesus existed and if a god created him, he was a hero, he was created as a very wise man.

God can not sin according to our bible. It is against His nature to sin. Jesus took away sin, he did not bring sin to us.

I suggest you go to the arminian forum for a while and debate your view on free will and your view about God causing sin, rather than having your entourage of yeah-sayers on your home turf.

 

[mustafhakofi]

mustafhakofi

I gotta link for you:

Arminian Forum

been there done that and still go for a laugh, now and then.

There are three points of view on free-will:

* calvinism -- man never had a free-will and never will
* salvation by grace -- free will exists until man's conversion to christianity
* arminianism -- man always has free-will, even after the conversion experience
You are arguing from the calvinist point of view.

No mine, you see I have free will, you dont.
read the thread.

God created all men to live forever after this life.

exactly no choice, what if I dont want to live forever.

Neither did you choose to be born in this life, but you are here.

no but my parents did for and on my behalf.

Man's relationship with God changed in the Garden of Eden.

did you not learn anything from snakelord and audible, regarding this, coerced, forced, pushed.

Concerning A&E, Yes, I learned that even very young animals in nature obey the voice of their parents in times of danger, thanks too SL. God asked A&E a simple request, "do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil". He did not ask them not to run in front of a car as in SL's exaggerated example. Adam disobeyed and yet he was given 500 more years to live (more than we get). In the final analysis, A&E's maturity/intelligence is irrelevant in decision making, they chose as small animals to disobey their protector parent's voice (God), and succumbed to the voice of a predator. Hence they fell prey as disobedient babies that left the safety of their loving parent, straying out into the predator's eager jaws.

so you learnt nothing, you dont drive to you, please let us know when your on the road next, so we can avoid getting killed.

God always loves man,

this is why he kills them so violently.

”

How do you know that? Has God been tried in court for murder?

your bible quotes it. there are over 650 evil deeds, this is mostly killings, either directly or indirectly caused by your god, and only just over 200 good deeds, there are just over fifty deeds atributed to the devil,satan,lucifer,Beelzebub, or any name you wish to call it, and none of those fify plus killed anyone.
also why would any sane person want to try a non existent thing.

Hell is where God puts those that he can not live with, and He is angry about it. He can not turn them to nothing but he can not take them to heaven either,

because he enjoys it, he rubs his hands with glee and say "look at those little bastards burn and they did'nt do anything wrong ha, ha, ha".

You do not understand the bible, for it is clearly written: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways and live.

no sir you do not understand your bible, and yes it is clearly written, I refer to the 650 evil deeds again.

and this is the paradox that an unbeliever is stuck with for eternity.

I'm an unbeliever and I have no paradox, i'm not going to heaven or hell. their is no eternity for me, thank f''k.

We are in a paradox today. None of us decided to be born and we all face death. How do you plan to excape death? You did not choose it did you?

but I'm not stupid I know it will happen and I know there is no after life, why would I wish to escape the inevitable, what I know I have to do is make everybody who's lives I come in contact with that little bit better.

the God we Christians believe in died an agonizing death on the cross so people would not have to go to hell. This is not an act of heroism as some would say, rather it is an act of total, selfless love on the part of Jesus.

what for sin was brought into the world by god because god wished it. if jesus existed and if a god created him, he was a hero, he was created as a very wise man.

God can not sin according to our bible.

of course it can, your god has broken 6.5 of the seven deadly sins.
if you sit down and take the time to read your bible, you will notice he was breaking his commandments every five minutes.

 

[Woody]

Musta:

No mine, you see I have free will, you dont.
read the thread.

Neither am I a calvinist, but you argue as though all christianity believes God forordained sin which is a calvinist view, not mine.

so you learnt nothing, you dont drive to you, please let us know when your on the road next, so we can avoid getting killed.

I will not be a drunken driver. Some would say they(drunk drivers) don't make a choice, but I say they do. Just as some people say alchoholics have a disease they can't help. Well then who is accountable I might ask you?

your bible quotes it. there are over 650 evil deeds, this is mostly killings, either directly or indirectly caused by your god, and only just over 200 good deeds, there are just over fifty deeds atributed to the devil,satan,lucifer,Beelzebub, or any name you wish to call it, and none of those fify plus killed anyone.
also why would any sane person want to try a non existent thing.

Have you ever wondered why God has not killed the enemy, Satan? If anyone deserves it he does.

About the choice to be born:

no but my parents did for and on my behalf.

I am glad your parents planned you, do you think they knew who you would be when they made that plan? God knew.

God is also a parent and he made a choice for you to live forever. How do you think your parents would feel if you ran away and mistreated them? That is how God feels. You are like the rebellious runaway teenager roaming the streets of this world. Sooner or later the predators come in for the kill. Have you heard about what happens to runaway teenagers? Couldn't they have gone to church instead where someone would try to help them?

Again I suggest you go to the arian forum where they will debate you 24 hours a day and seven days a week concerning free-will.

 

[mustafhakofi]

Musta:
but you argue as though all christianity believes God forordained sin which is a calvinist view .

no I have never argued that all xians believe that, if you take this infallible bible, and read it you find that the god therein has forordained all for man.

I will not be a drunken driver. Some would say they(drunk drivers) don't make a choice, but I say they do. Just as some people say alchoholics have a disease they can't help. Well then who is accountable I might ask you?

if you cant see whats put in front of you, your more dangerous than any drunk.
whos accountable, god.

Have you ever wondered why God has not killed the enemy, Satan? If anyone deserves it he does.

why does he deserve it, he less evil then your god, (there are over 650 evil deeds, this is mostly killings, either directly or indirectly caused by your god, and only just over 200 good deeds, there are just over fifty deeds atributed to the devil,satan,lucifer,Beelzebub, or any name you wish to call it, and none of those fifty plus killed anyone.

I am glad your parents planned you, do you think they knew who you would be when they made that plan? God knew.

no of course, they had no idea, but you answer your own question about forordained, with this statement.

God is also a parent and he made a choice for you to live forever.

no, he's not, a parent does not look on, when they are able to stop they child being abused, that is not parenting, he made no choice for me, but if he had , he made the wrong one.

How do you think your parents would feel if you ran away and mistreated them? That is how God feels. You are like the rebellious runaway teenager roaming the streets of this world.

do you really think I would lose any sleep over whether an evil callous cruel bastards, feelings were hurt, I could'nt give a s''t.
as to my own parents, I would'nt or could'nt ever have run away from such a loving home.

Again I suggest you go to the arian forum where they will debate you 24 hours a day and seven days a week concerning free-will.

thanks for the invite, but I'll perhap go and annoy them again tomorrow.

 

[Woody]

Musta,

no I have never argued that all xians believe that, if you take this infallible bible, and read it you find that the god therein has forordained all for man.

That is calvinism by definition. As I said before, take your quote to the arminian forum and watch them roast it. They will tell you it is a lie from Hell.

if you cant see whats put in front of you, your more dangerous than any drunk. whos accountable, god.

My vision was recently 20:15 -- not bad for a 52 year old man that's heard a lot in his lifetime, including the kiddipooh version of A&E for the gazzilionth time. "He just doesn't get it" they say. Tell over two billion christians in this world that they just don't get it (refer to your chart). You and your atheist brethren are greatly outnumbered. Are you going to tell us you are right and we are wrong? If there wasn't a bible we would probably be like you. You have a bible and you choose to be like you, therefore you have no excuse.

Yes, we do get it -- people want an excuse, and they will try anything to find it: rationalization is one of their favorite ways to justify their own faults.

They join hands and pat each other's back, like a big "love-in" where no one wants to be accountable:

Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished

They feel safety in their own numbers. Why don't you tackle the arminian forum, where you can't be the bully with your army of sidekick atheists like you have here. Do you really want an answer? No, I think you just want an argument, by your own confession.

no of course, they had no idea, but you answer your own question about forordained, with this statement.

When you become a parent will you forbid your son or daughter from having a choice?

do you really think I would lose any sleep over whether an evil callous cruel bastards, feelings were hurt

When you say that, look at Jesus because He is the God I worship.

When can we stop arguing? Does this help anyone? I hope so, but I doubt it. Oh no, I got sucked into it again by a fiesty 19 year-old redhead whose parents are probably younger than I am.

 

[mustafhakofi]

Musta,
That is calvinism by definition. As I said before, take your quote to the arminian forum and watch them roast it. They will tell you it is a lie from Hell.

I am an atheist reading your bible, so could not give a toss whether it's someone elses point of view, and as I said I've been there done that, and I get a good laugh out of it, never been roasted yet.

My vision was recently 20:15 -- not bad for a 52 year old man that's heard a lot in his lifetime, including the kiddipooh version of A&E for the gazzilionth time. "He just doesn't get it" they say. Tell over two billion christians in this world that they just don't get it (refer to your chart). You and your atheist brethren are greatly outnumbered. Are you going to tell us you are right and we are wrong?

if a thing is wrong, and a billion people believe it 's true, it's still wrong. (in the 15th century, they still believed the world was flat, until a small band of people showed them the error in there ways.)

If there wasn't a bible we would probably be like you. You have a bible and you choose to be like you, therefore you have no excuse.

and that would be a good thing.
I dont need an excuse, the way I am has come from reading that bible, so I more than happy.

Yes, we do get it

as I said if a things wrong etc etc...

people want an excuse, and they will try anything to find it: rationalization is one of their favourite ways to justify their own faults.

as I said I have no excuse, and does'nt that cut both ways.

They join hands and pat each other's back, like a big "love-in" where no one wants to be accountable:

whats to be accountable for, we dont believe an of that tripe.

They feel safety in their own numbers. Why don't you tackle the arminian forum, where you can't be the bully with your army of sidekick atheists like you have here.

I am not a bully, and can stick up for myself quite well, I dont have an army as you say of sidekicks, could you please name them.
people might be like minded, such as two xians having the same views, as I dont know you personally, I dont know anybody on this forum personally.

do you really want an answer?

if you could give me one I would be happy, to turn to god, unfortunately you hav'nt succeeded.

When you become a parent will you forbid your son or daughter from having a choice?

No of course not, if she so wishes to turn to god that her perogative, my father never stopped me becoming an atheist, and he's a devout muslim.

When you say that, look at Jesus because He is the God I worship.

did you read what I said about, jesus earlier in the thread.

When can we stop arguing? Does this help anyone? I hope so, but I doubt it. Oh no, I got sucked into it again by a fiesty 19 year-old redhead whose parents are probably younger than I am.

no they are the same age well just about, the arguement seems to be all on your side, as I dont feel I am arguing, I thought we were debating an issue.
thats just avatar I am dark haired, and 29 sir, your right about fiesty.