why have'nt you replied laser.
or did it shock you that misty knew more about the bible.
her being an atheist and all.
or did it shock you that misty knew more about the bible.
her being an atheist and all.
some questions regarding FREE WILL?
- Thread starter mustafhakofi
- Start date
mustafhakofi,
He also knows the person has a choice and may come to the understanding that he need not yeild to the temptations of the of the body. God knows that if the person accepts the body as the actual self, then he may descend into hell. But if the person accepts God through the realisation of his own self (soul), then he will (eventually) asscend into the kingdom of God.
The only part of man which is instrumental in deciding his own fate, the life or the soul, is one with God's own self.
In the book of genesis it says that God created the form of Adam from the dust (material elements), then breathed 'life' into the nostril, then Adam became a 'living soul'. This indicates that God is 'life' and the form is 'lifeless', until the presence of 'spirit' is within.
The spirit, although coming from God, was/is an individual, separate from Him, but one with Him in quality (breath). So man possesses the characteristics of God within his body, one of those characteristic being 'desire'.
As God is free to choose, so is man. Man's choices ultimately come down to two choices; to live according to the desires presented by his own mind and bodily senses for the purpose of enjoying the temporal world, or to realise his true position as a part and parcel of God and strive to become His devoted servant.
God will not intervene in his choice, unless asked to do so, in the right manner, always giving him the opportunity to change his mind.
We choose to live the life we live, and we must accept the consequences of our action, be they favorable or unfavorable.
Galations 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Or not!
Depending on the choices the people make.
You have not given a proper definition of their god, you only take the bits that you think suit your case.
The primary question should be; Why would a loving god make men?
That is, if your questions are sincere in the hope of clarification.
I suggest before you carry on in this line of questioning, you obtain an honest definition of God and "people" as from the biblical perspective, then you will understand this so-called paradox you are presenting.
Jan Ardena.
He also knows the person has a choice and may come to the understanding that he need not yeild to the temptations of the of the body. God knows that if the person accepts the body as the actual self, then he may descend into hell. But if the person accepts God through the realisation of his own self (soul), then he will (eventually) asscend into the kingdom of God.
The only part of man which is instrumental in deciding his own fate, the life or the soul, is one with God's own self.
In the book of genesis it says that God created the form of Adam from the dust (material elements), then breathed 'life' into the nostril, then Adam became a 'living soul'. This indicates that God is 'life' and the form is 'lifeless', until the presence of 'spirit' is within.
The spirit, although coming from God, was/is an individual, separate from Him, but one with Him in quality (breath). So man possesses the characteristics of God within his body, one of those characteristic being 'desire'.
As God is free to choose, so is man. Man's choices ultimately come down to two choices; to live according to the desires presented by his own mind and bodily senses for the purpose of enjoying the temporal world, or to realise his true position as a part and parcel of God and strive to become His devoted servant.
God will not intervene in his choice, unless asked to do so, in the right manner, always giving him the opportunity to change his mind.
We choose to live the life we live, and we must accept the consequences of our action, be they favorable or unfavorable.
Galations 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Or not!
Depending on the choices the people make.
You have not given a proper definition of their god, you only take the bits that you think suit your case.
The primary question should be; Why would a loving god make men?
That is, if your questions are sincere in the hope of clarification.
I suggest before you carry on in this line of questioning, you obtain an honest definition of God and "people" as from the biblical perspective, then you will understand this so-called paradox you are presenting.
Jan Ardena.
You mean if a person become a mindless slave to the will of "god" hmmm Preachers who seduce children, I mean then one will most likely go to heaven?.
Heaven and hell are just made up ancient ploys to fool and seduce the idiots who believe such non-sense.
God can't possibly make any decission on man's actions, this would render him not omnipotent, and not omniscient. See it's plain simple logic.
I.E:
God is supposedly omniscient, therefore he/she/it know's the future, he knows your future, he knows wether you will be a rapist, murder, or a true believer who has his flock commit suitside (rem:Rev. Jim Johnes) if god chooses who goes to heaven or hell, by man's actions then he/it/she wouldn't be omniscient.
Hmnmmm Genesis is a mockery of science.
Now if only Priest followed their own bs, we would have safer kids!!.
As for the rest!! Theistic propaganda, based on assumptions.
Godless.
God has no free will: By Vexen
1. An omniscient being does not have free will
If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all it's actions are predetermined.
"There is a lightswitch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?"
Vexen
This makes sense!. and it's logical.
If an all knowing entity, knows the future, he can't change the outcome, if it does then the outcome would be "unknowable" to it. If this happens then this entity can't possibly be omnisicient.
Godless.
1. An omniscient being does not have free will
If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all it's actions are predetermined.
"There is a lightswitch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?"
Vexen
This makes sense!. and it's logical.
If an all knowing entity, knows the future, he can't change the outcome, if it does then the outcome would be "unknowable" to it. If this happens then this entity can't possibly be omnisicient.
Godless.
mustafhakofi: Alright, I wasn't here when you started this thread, so I didn't have the opportunity to answer your frist query before you moved onto your proceeding ones.
First, it is false that if you do not accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are condemned to Hell. This is absurd because there are millions who have never heard of Jesus. It is rediculous because it would mean that everyone before Christ was condemned to Hell. No, it is not true that if you do not accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are going to go to Hell. If you lead your life according to what you honestly and truly believe to be good and true, and follow your conscience all of your days, then you are really pursuing the life that Christ wished. Whether what you believe to be good and true is or not is irrelivant, since many beleive false things unwittingly. How can such people be guilty of crime?
As has already been discussed, no Hell is not a place spoken of only in the NT.
A misconception is that God sends people to Hell. This is an idea that comes out of Egyptian mythology, it attached itself to Judaism first after they came out of Egypt. The reality of the matter is that we condemn ourselves to Hell. To understand this correctly, you must realize that Hell is not a "place," but rather, it is a state of being. One may very well experience a kind of Hell on earth, though that Hell is not utter. Also, one may experience Heaven here on earth, though it is not utter (meaning it is not a total experience of Heaven, but rather a shadow of the real experience). When someone feels guilty (having acted against their conscience), a common reaction is to excoriate one's self, think ill of themselves. If one cannot love one's self, then he cannot love those around him. If a person remains in this state for any length of time, and continues to act against his conscience, then this person soon begins to believe himself unworthy of forgiveness, and despair sets in. A person who despairs, at this point has already lost love of himself and love of others. Because such a person believes himself unworthy of forgiveness, even from himself, he begins to hate those who do not forgive him, including himself. This is Hell. It is a mentality that you cannot be forgiven. This is why Hell is so painful. Hell is utter loneliness. Utter unhappiness. Hell is only Eternal for those who are unable to release themselves of this slavery. God ever desires these people to be happy, to experience forgiveness and love, and would do all the He could to help them. However help must be allowed, and cannot be forced upon a thing with free will. A person who is that far gone already hates God, and would not accept help from Him. The judgement of God, is that He cannot do anything to help you, since He sees in your heart that you would not accept such help even if it were offered. When that judgement is made based upon the state of your soul, but it is truly you who condemn yourself to Hell, and from that moment on, that is all you will ever experience.
As for Free Will, you are mostly correct except for, once again, your ideas of the judgement.
First, it is false that if you do not accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are condemned to Hell. This is absurd because there are millions who have never heard of Jesus. It is rediculous because it would mean that everyone before Christ was condemned to Hell. No, it is not true that if you do not accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are going to go to Hell. If you lead your life according to what you honestly and truly believe to be good and true, and follow your conscience all of your days, then you are really pursuing the life that Christ wished. Whether what you believe to be good and true is or not is irrelivant, since many beleive false things unwittingly. How can such people be guilty of crime?
As has already been discussed, no Hell is not a place spoken of only in the NT.
A misconception is that God sends people to Hell. This is an idea that comes out of Egyptian mythology, it attached itself to Judaism first after they came out of Egypt. The reality of the matter is that we condemn ourselves to Hell. To understand this correctly, you must realize that Hell is not a "place," but rather, it is a state of being. One may very well experience a kind of Hell on earth, though that Hell is not utter. Also, one may experience Heaven here on earth, though it is not utter (meaning it is not a total experience of Heaven, but rather a shadow of the real experience). When someone feels guilty (having acted against their conscience), a common reaction is to excoriate one's self, think ill of themselves. If one cannot love one's self, then he cannot love those around him. If a person remains in this state for any length of time, and continues to act against his conscience, then this person soon begins to believe himself unworthy of forgiveness, and despair sets in. A person who despairs, at this point has already lost love of himself and love of others. Because such a person believes himself unworthy of forgiveness, even from himself, he begins to hate those who do not forgive him, including himself. This is Hell. It is a mentality that you cannot be forgiven. This is why Hell is so painful. Hell is utter loneliness. Utter unhappiness. Hell is only Eternal for those who are unable to release themselves of this slavery. God ever desires these people to be happy, to experience forgiveness and love, and would do all the He could to help them. However help must be allowed, and cannot be forced upon a thing with free will. A person who is that far gone already hates God, and would not accept help from Him. The judgement of God, is that He cannot do anything to help you, since He sees in your heart that you would not accept such help even if it were offered. When that judgement is made based upon the state of your soul, but it is truly you who condemn yourself to Hell, and from that moment on, that is all you will ever experience.
As for Free Will, you are mostly correct except for, once again, your ideas of the judgement.
Why does God create people whom He knows before hand will reject Him and go into the eternal lake of fire?
Romans 9
21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now if God had decided not to create those vessels (people) who He knew where going to reject Him, then what would that have done to the future? Don't the people who reject Him also form an integral part of History? Of course they do. God has endured with much longsuffering the people who reject him for those that have accepted Him... Because to have people who accept him with free will you need another option and that is rejection. So Yes God created people who knew where going to reject Him and He created people who He knew where going to accept Him. But he has given all men the free will to do as they wish. Gods knowledge of whom will reject and whom will accept does not come from Him making one person accept and making another reject. His knowledge comes from His foreknowledge That is He can see all history all at one time. Time as we know it in this universe is a part of Gods creation. God is not limited by the physical laws of this universe nor is He restricted to the laws of time in this universe. The Creator is not confined by what He has created. God has created a system where mankind can have a choice. The choice is still the individuals choice. So God is not responsible for the individuals choice.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
Romans 9
21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now if God had decided not to create those vessels (people) who He knew where going to reject Him, then what would that have done to the future? Don't the people who reject Him also form an integral part of History? Of course they do. God has endured with much longsuffering the people who reject him for those that have accepted Him... Because to have people who accept him with free will you need another option and that is rejection. So Yes God created people who knew where going to reject Him and He created people who He knew where going to accept Him. But he has given all men the free will to do as they wish. Gods knowledge of whom will reject and whom will accept does not come from Him making one person accept and making another reject. His knowledge comes from His foreknowledge That is He can see all history all at one time. Time as we know it in this universe is a part of Gods creation. God is not limited by the physical laws of this universe nor is He restricted to the laws of time in this universe. The Creator is not confined by what He has created. God has created a system where mankind can have a choice. The choice is still the individuals choice. So God is not responsible for the individuals choice.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
Godless,
What are you babbling on about Godless?
How do you know?
That has nothing to do with the point i made.
So why bother to respond in this thread?
Jan Ardena.
What are you babbling on about Godless?
How do you know?
That has nothing to do with the point i made.
So why bother to respond in this thread?
Jan Ardena.
*So why bother to respond in this thread?
entertainment!.
That is the only reason I'm here. Do you expect for me to take any of this seriously?. LOL,
Good luck.
*What are you babbling on about Godless?
Where have you been lately Jan, haven't you taken out your nose out to the Vidas, bible, or computer to realize all of the allegations of child rape by Catholic priests?
PLEASE WAKE UP!!
Not only as there been thousands of complaints about child abuse, but literally rape. Not only by Catholicism, but thorough the whole branch of judaism.
WHAS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
Godless.
entertainment!.
That is the only reason I'm here. Do you expect for me to take any of this seriously?. LOL,
Good luck.
*What are you babbling on about Godless?
Where have you been lately Jan, haven't you taken out your nose out to the Vidas, bible, or computer to realize all of the allegations of child rape by Catholic priests?
PLEASE WAKE UP!!
Not only as there been thousands of complaints about child abuse, but literally rape. Not only by Catholicism, but thorough the whole branch of judaism.
WHAS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
Godless.
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Godless,
Then please get a life.
Yes i do. Otherwise you're just spoiling for those of us who want to take it serioiusly.
And what does any of this have to do with the point i made?
Jan Ardena.
entertainment!.
Then please get a life.
Yes i do. Otherwise you're just spoiling for those of us who want to take it serioiusly.
And what does any of this have to do with the point i made?
Jan Ardena.
free will can also be called choice. do you agree. when i can choose someting. some course of action
please let me recommend you this to read...it isn't published but can be read online, it's called 'The Power of Choice' by Druscilla French
what's it about?
she demostrates how the patriarchy maintaines its power/statuq quo through its mythology, fairy stories, psychology, the nonomyth/perennial philosophy, psychology (where Jung gets a good look at with his 'God image" etc), and the 'rules' of literature
all these forms you will see have these mainpulations going on for the unsupsecting reader that keeps the same old same old going on in different guises
it is a very inspiring read. she calls it the power of choice because she is showing that that is exactly what it is. you DON'T have to buy what they are selling. you can see through it if you want to make the effort
you dont have to accept any myth that doesn't suit you. you can create your OWN. such is your freedom and power f choice
also in your life. are you in a shitty job, shitty lifestyle, and think you dont have no choice? well really you DO don't you. you really do, what holds you back from excercising this power of choice is your fear of doing so. of course we cant choose not to die, or to stop those we love dying etc. but that is life isn't it?and death of course
please let me recommend you this to read...it isn't published but can be read online, it's called 'The Power of Choice' by Druscilla French
what's it about?
she demostrates how the patriarchy maintaines its power/statuq quo through its mythology, fairy stories, psychology, the nonomyth/perennial philosophy, psychology (where Jung gets a good look at with his 'God image" etc), and the 'rules' of literature
all these forms you will see have these mainpulations going on for the unsupsecting reader that keeps the same old same old going on in different guises
it is a very inspiring read. she calls it the power of choice because she is showing that that is exactly what it is. you DON'T have to buy what they are selling. you can see through it if you want to make the effort
you dont have to accept any myth that doesn't suit you. you can create your OWN. such is your freedom and power f choice
also in your life. are you in a shitty job, shitty lifestyle, and think you dont have no choice? well really you DO don't you. you really do, what holds you back from excercising this power of choice is your fear of doing so. of course we cant choose not to die, or to stop those we love dying etc. but that is life isn't it?and death of course
mustafhakofi said:
I of course do not favor either muslim nor christian belief. Both are psychopatic concepts. If the entire world were muslim I would not choose to live in it. Same for christanity.
What a bunch of babbling crap. "My God is greater than your God." "My God will kick your Gods ass." "My God says if I kill you because you do not believe as I do, he will give me virgins for my eternal use".
Just where are these virgins coming from? Are such muslim believers all pedifiles? Must be.
Only stupid, animals kill in the name of their God. We kill in self defense and kill and kill and kill, we shall do, until the world is devoid of such pathetic creations.
MacM,
And this isn't psycophathic?
Jan Ardena.
And this isn't psycophathic?
Jan Ardena.
MacM said:
Just who are these "stupid animals" you intend to kill, kill, kill?
Jan Ardena.
Who is us and why do they advocate killing you??
Jan Ardena.
Jan Ardena said:
Please don't be obtuse. This thread is burdensomely long already. Islamic radicals is your answer. Not musims perse but the religious radicals of any faith.
i.e. - Religious right radicals advocate and do kill Dr's that are performing legal operations.
MacM,
Please refrain from insults as i am doing.
The length of the thread is of no importance, you do not need to read it. But if you add to it then expect it to grow.
As for your method of dealing with "Islamic radicals", it is no better than their methods, it only increases senseless violence by creating more radicals.
However, in the post to which i responded to your defiant threat of the kill! kill! killing of these so-called "stupid animals, the object of your rancor were people (animals) who kill in the name of their god. And the reason for this orgy of this intended violence was to make the world devoid of "such pathetic creations."
What did you mean by "such pathetic creations?"
But are they killing in the name of God?
Can you give evidence where they have?
Jan Ardena.
Please refrain from insults as i am doing.
The length of the thread is of no importance, you do not need to read it. But if you add to it then expect it to grow.
As for your method of dealing with "Islamic radicals", it is no better than their methods, it only increases senseless violence by creating more radicals.
However, in the post to which i responded to your defiant threat of the kill! kill! killing of these so-called "stupid animals, the object of your rancor were people (animals) who kill in the name of their god. And the reason for this orgy of this intended violence was to make the world devoid of "such pathetic creations."
What did you mean by "such pathetic creations?"
But are they killing in the name of God?
Can you give evidence where they have?
Jan Ardena.
Hi everyone...i'm new to the forum...
Regarding the subject of the thread, I feel that there are valid arguments both for and against free will. I think what preserves our freedom lies in the microscopic world, as subatomic particles do not operate based on newtonian physics. This loop hole allows us the possibility of free will. I am very thankful for this, as i would hate to be forced by fate to eat liver!!
Regarding the subject of the thread, I feel that there are valid arguments both for and against free will. I think what preserves our freedom lies in the microscopic world, as subatomic particles do not operate based on newtonian physics. This loop hole allows us the possibility of free will. I am very thankful for this, as i would hate to be forced by fate to eat liver!!