i know this is hard to conceptualize. we have free will, but god can know the choices that we make before we make them because time is not a constraint for him. i'm pretty sure this has even been a concept in movies. if you move forward in time, then you can see the future. he doesn't even have to move forward. he sees everything all at once. it's like being able to see the end of a chess game. he won't make your moves for you, but he'll definitely win.
Some logic for both sides...
- Thread starter Lori_7
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i know this is hard to conceptualize. we have free will, but god can know the choices that we make before we make them because time is not a constraint for him. i'm pretty sure this has even been a concept in movies. if you move forward in time, then you can see the future. he doesn't even have to move forward. he sees everything all at once. it's like being able to see the end of a chess game. he won't make your moves for you, but he'll definitely win.
Gods a cheater?
i don't know about the matrix. law is the only constant, and because he has created it, he will have his way in the end. but you get to choose what you do in regards to that. it seems to me that you choose whether you want to exist or not, and if so, or until you don't anymore, you choose how you do it.
a creator. his powers are inherent, and he always acts in our best interest.
life isn't a chess game. it's a learning exercise. it's the development of you.
Lori,
If such a being exists then you can only be an automaton playing out exactly all the actions the creator has determined you will do for your entire life. Whether you choose to follow the savior or die will have been determined long before you were ever born. What you would think of as free will would be an illusion.
It doesn't matter whether he can move through time or not or what mechanism he might use, the fact remains that if your perceived choice is known before you make it then you have had no freedom to make a free choice. Whatever action you make would have been pre-determined. There can be no free choice if an omniscient god exists.
If such a being exists then you can only be an automaton playing out exactly all the actions the creator has determined you will do for your entire life. Whether you choose to follow the savior or die will have been determined long before you were ever born. What you would think of as free will would be an illusion.
god creates the law that science discovers and documents. nothing happens outside of his law. nothing happens by "magic". nothing is "magic". not god, not anything. and even if something seems that way, it's only unexplainable, and only unexplainable because of our own limitations. we just haven't found out the science behind it yet. that doesn't mean there's no science behind it.
you have no idea what you're talking about. you weren't there. you aren't him. you aren't me. you have never experienced this type of thing. so how can you possible pretend to make some conclusion regarding it. chris, you just pulled that right out of your butt.
where in the world are you getting that known=determined?? if you were to travel forward in time, and you knew about a decision that i would make in an hour from now, would that mean that you were making that decision for me??
NO, IT WOULDN'T.
you have no idea what you're talking about. you weren't there. you aren't him. you aren't me. you have never experienced this type of thing. so how can you possible pretend to make some conclusion regarding it. chris, you just pulled that right out of your butt.
Why is it then that the holy spirit channels itself through some people and not others?
It's not hard; it's impossible. Let's say god can do anything that people want him to, That removes the need for further discussion.
lori,
If he is omnipotent and if he truly always acted in our best interests then he could have created an environment where everyone would make the correct choices for life. Since he appears to be prepared to allow people to suffer and die in hell then he clearly does not act in everyone's best interest.
That cannot be true. If it were then a hell could not exist. It is not in anyone's best interest to be condemned to hell.
If he is omnipotent and if he truly always acted in our best interests then he could have created an environment where everyone would make the correct choices for life. Since he appears to be prepared to allow people to suffer and die in hell then he clearly does not act in everyone's best interest.
Those he chooses as channels are the chosen people, What a silly question. How dare you question god's ways, you miserable speck crawling about on the home god created for you,
Sheer ingratitude, that's what I call it. I think you owe god an apology or it's the lake of fire for you. ( rubs his hands in glee at the prospect of watching sinners suffering )
Lori,
If the knowledge exists by whatever cause than that precludes you from having freedom of choice.
It is a necessary condition and paradox that would have to occur if manipulation of time were possible.
No. I would not be the factor that determines your action. But the fact that your action would be known before you made it means that you no longer would have any freedom to do anything else.
If the knowledge exists by whatever cause than that precludes you from having freedom of choice.
I'm sorry god...I'm sorry :bawl:
Ok, let's establish where we are at right now..
You state that god, knowing every [perceived] choice that you will ever make, does not negate 'free will', that you are indeed still making a free choice.
We shall assume for the sake of this that god also has free will, the freedom to make specific choices. It is therefore valid to state that this god chose to create Adam and Eve. He did not choose to create say Bob and Jane or Mark and Mary, he chose specifically to create two beings knowing every single action they would ever do in their lives.
But he did not choose what those actions would be, he merely chose to create two people that would do specific things. They were created and could not have ever done anything else.
So what I will ask for the sake of discussion is why did he not create Bob and Jane instead? See, Bob and Jane both would have chosen differently. They would not have eaten the fruit and thus not caused the fall of man.
You cannot argue that they do not have free will, (your very argument is that they would have free will), even though god would know specifically in advance that these people would not completely fudge everything up.
So why choose to create two beings that you know will fudge everything up? It is a specific choice on gods part, the creation has absolutely no say in the matter whatsoever, they will simply undertake every action that they are going to undertake and consider it a choice.
But then so would Bob and Jane - no evil would have ever been done and the world would be a
So, I have now sent an email to god detailing the solution to all his, (and our), problems. Start from scratch and this time create Bob and Jane instead of Adam and Eve. Free will is still entirely intact, he didn't make the choice for them, he simply knows in advance that they wont make a complete mess of things.
Lori,
The universe appears to behave according to some very fundamental laws. That appears to be the nature of the universe. There is no reason to speculate that a god was the cause of those laws.
Leave out the god created the law part and you will finally comprehend reality.
The universe appears to behave according to some very fundamental laws. That appears to be the nature of the universe. There is no reason to speculate that a god was the cause of those laws.
one of the trippier moments of my life, but not the trippiest.
would the absence of the time constraint make it possible to be everywhere at once?
i have had the holy spirit channel messages to me through people who had no idea it was happening. they were just doin' their thing...making conversation. no, to where my jaw hit the floor. and the other person's like, "what?" :shrug: