Some logic for both sides...

[Yorda]

All you're doing with "God did it" is pushing the question back a step further.

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause.

"Very obvious" to who?

even to little children.

And who is this "design" by?

life. the spirit that is in matter. god.

And you do realise that humans ARE just animals... albeit animals who have risen above the others in terms of intellect and self-awareness.

humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time.

envision the present moment.

Why does the bible not give a straightforward figure. ?

because god didn't create the universe in the past, he is continually creating (changing) it in the timeless now. there are 7 days in a week. we work for 6 days and rest the 7th.

god created the world in 7 elements. but the 3 elements are different from the 4.

What and where is the spiritual realm ?

it's all around us, but we can't see it until our physical bodies die.

I would say we are.

then we would have no free will.

 

[glaucon]

then we would have no free will.

Depending on how you define 'free will', but provisionally, yes, I agree.

 

[Saquist]

From what starting point do you arrive at these conclusions ? There are so many assumptions that I wonder how you can possibly believe what you say.

If you believe in an all-powerful god ,then don't blame Adam and Eve for being the way god may them. They had no choice.

Why is that important for you to know?

 

[(Q)]

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

Why would prop up a scientific theory with a fairy tale?

 

[Sarkus]

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause.

Oookay.
Am I missing something?
Are you poking fun?
Has the joke whistled over my balding head?

even to little children.

Yes, the uneducated little childern.

life. the spirit that is in matter. god.

Ah - so you define God as "life"?
Okay - but why call it God?

humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.

LOL!! Now I know you're just having a laugh.

Almost had me there for a moment!

 

[Myles]

Why is that important for you to know?

Are you suggesting that you'll only answer a question is someone proves tpo you that the answer is imoortant to them ?

Well, that's one way of avoiding haviung the nonsensense youi talk being challenged, I just wonder how anyone can believe in Genesis, suitably interpreted to suit his purpose, angels and all the rest. You realize that a spin could be put on any passage in the bible tomake it mean what one wants, which is what you are doing.

Would you like me to explain how to turn gang rape in the OT into a tea party? You can also email head office for advice , in your normal maner.

 

[Myles]

Why would prop up a scientific theory with a fairy tale?

I take it you know that you won't get a straight answer unless you have more luck with these characters than I do. First, they reject Darwin but, when the tide of informed opinion turns against them, they pull another rabbit out of the hat. Evolution is now god's way of doing things, despite which it doesn't invalidate Genesis. God rested on the seventh day as the bible says and this PROVES that his work wasn't finished.

 

[Myles]

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause.



even to little children.



life. the spirit that is in matter. god.



humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.



envision the present moment.



because god didn't create the universe in the past, he is continually creating (changing) it in the timeless now. there are 7 days in a week. we work for 6 days and rest the 7th.

god created the world in 7 elements. but the 3 elements are different from the 4.



it's all around us, but we can't see it until our physical bodies die.



then we would have no free will.

So how come you know about the spiritual realm if you are not dead, which I assume you are not ?

3 is definitely different from 4 . What is your point ?

 

[Myles]

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.

On reflection. don't bother, i,e,. avoid, answering my question. It is implicit in your post that you are not a man to be argued with. You have the angels on your side.

 

[greenberg]

Where is Lori?

 

[cosmictraveler]

I concern myself with life and living not death and whatever lies beyond.

 

[Myles]

Where is Lori?

In the spiritual dimension ? I'm sure he'll be back later.

 

[Lori_7]

It applies no matter how one conceptualizes God. There is simply nothing for Him to do.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time. Everything in our universe seems to be subject to time, otherwise there would be no time in which actions could occur.

maybe he doesn't do. maybe he just is.

just because you can't envision it doesn't mean it can't be. i can't envision it either. i can't understand infinity, or something not having a beginning or an end. but if god is omnipresent, then doesn't that imply that he is not subject to a time constraint? i don't think we have the capacity to understand what god is and what he can do. and i don't think that calling him a "he" helps any.

 

[Lori_7]

How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"?

Are they evil?
Are they insincere?
Are they deluded?
Just haven't tried hard enough?
It is not their fault?
God has a special plan for them?


Any answer a theist gives to the question How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"? puts those people into a no-win situation.

They either have to believe that they are evil, deluded, insincere, just that haven't tried hard enough, that it isn't their fault or that there is some special plan for them. All of these options are such that they disempower the person.
No wonder some people become insane when they try to "experience God".


Lori, what do you want to accomplish by having started this thread?

the only thing you have to do to experience or know god is to want to, so the people who haven't, haven't really wanted to. i think a lot of people are afraid of what it will mean, and that it's just too consequential, or they want to put limits and constraints on him, or don't have the right intentions toward gaining the knowledge. i think it's dangerous if your intentions aren't sincere and humble and pure. i think in this life ultimately, you get what you want so be careful about what it is that you want and why because he'll give it to you. that's what satan's for.

you know, an experience that i've been through made me lose it for a while. i just had an almost impossible time reconciling what i was going through on the inside, with what was going on around me in the "real world". it's not all sunshine and teddy bears with him. he'll turn your life upside down and you need to be willing to deal with that i guess, and i think a lot of people aren't.

i started this thread just to make some people realize that it doesn't always have to be us against them, and just to offer a different perspective besides the one that's been beaten to death for forever. i wish people would get out of their boxes, and i wish people would stop being so concerned about being right, and more concerned with what actually is right. if more people would stop segregating and arguing, and came together and started seeking, maybe they would find the truth, instead of just beating the hell out of a dead horse.

 

[Lori_7]

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.

there's NO WAY he can be done creating man, we're WAY too f'd up! we're not going to stay this way. i think that when he's done with us, we will live forever. there will be no death because there will be no sin, and we will live forever in a paradise of perfect balance and equilibrium. it would make more sense to me if the 1000 year reign of christ was the day of rest. but i don't know if jesus would see it that way. it sounds like he'll have his work to do.

but the problem is not a choice if it's all part of the plan. god wanted us to experience sin and the consequences of it. he wanted us to KNOW what it's like to experience good and evil, and that way we can make a choice to live in his law forever. otherwise we would just be puppets, and we wouldn't be making choices, just following orders. i honestly think that when we come to live forever in perfection, that it will be because we all actually choose to do the right thing all of the time. can you imagine such a thing? i think i can...

 

[Lori_7]

From what starting point do you arrive at these conclusions ? There are so many assumptions that I wonder how you can possibly believe what you say.

If you believe in an all-powerful god ,then don't blame Adam and Eve for being the way god may them. They had no choice.

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

 

[Lori_7]

Where is Lori?

i'm sorry, yesterday was a big day. i had to vote in the morning, and work all day, and then go to class all night. i'm getting certified to become a foster mom.

 

[Myles]

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

Nothing to be learned if god hadn't made a mess in the first place and then conveniently blamed it on others.He had a second try when he sent the deluge but he still didn't get it right. So now he's trying again. It's about time he realized his limitations and gave up.

 

[Myles]

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

If the choice is imperative to the plan they had no choice, God wanted it that way, so that's the way it had to be.

 

[spidergoat]

maybe he doesn't do. maybe he just is.

just because you can't envision it doesn't mean it can't be. i can't envision it either. i can't understand infinity, or something not having a beginning or an end. but if god is omnipresent, then doesn't that imply that he is not subject to a time constraint? i don't think we have the capacity to understand what god is and what he can do. and i don't think that calling him a "he" helps any.

How about we call it "it"? How about we call it "space-time"? What if all you are talking about are natural laws that interact to form coherent structures? It seems to me the height of human ego to postulate a anthropomorphic thing that's responsible for everything.

Maybe if you don't understand something, you should wait until a valid explanation comes along, not invent some intellectual shortcut that precludes further examination?