Some logic for both sides...

[greenberg]

i can not speak for your intentions or your life path,

You already did: earlier, for example, when you stated that those who do not know God, do not know him because they do not want to know him.

And moreover, you speak of my intentions and of my life path when you say:

but i do know that you are no different than i am inherently.

Are you omniscient? Am I supposed to think you are omniscient?

everybody has a different way.

Why then, for example, did you accuse Glaucon of attacking you when he tried to understand things in his own way?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

yes. i think that i hate because i think clearly and rationally. for example, i'm currently taking steps to become a foster parent. i have taken classes, not that you would need to take classes to know these things, but where an instructor has given some generalities about child abuse and neglect. every day kids are beaten, starved, ignored, berated, burned, and molested. they are tortured at the hands of the people who are supposed to love and protect them. i hate that. does that mean i'm going to seek retribution on behalf of one of these children? no. if i saw a child being abused i would intervene in whatever way necessary to protect it. that's why i want to be a foster mom.

*************
M*W: I commend you for wanting to be a foster parent. I was, several times over. My own children are still close to most of them, and they turned out great... There's a few we've lost touch with, but I know I did my best to be there for them when they were young. It's not an easy job. In my case, I had four children, so what's a few more? My kids always had friends at the house, so we lived like we were in a commune! Oh, but I digress to my hippie days.

but while i hate the sin, i don't hate the sinner. it's not the people that i hate. it's what we do to ourselves and each other that i hate.

*************
M*W: I've heard several christians say this, but what I don't understand is how does one separate the "sin" from the "sinner?" Sure, it's PC to distinguish the two, but I don't think it's possible. It's a cop-out. Please explain to me how you can differentiate between the "sin" and "sinner." I see them as one and the same. You can't have one without the other.

I've known people who had extremely bad behavior, and I gave them all a chance. I tried to help them, but ultimately, it's just a matter of time before their bad behavior affects you. I don't believe you can hate the "sin" but love the "sinner" for an extended period of time, because sooner or later, they'll screw you too. That tells me the "sin" and the "sinner" are the same.

sure. better than sticking my head in the sand, or numbing myself with some drug and pretending nothing's wrong like most people do.

*************
M*W: This was sort of my point. Be proactive, give someone a chance... but be aware that with a "sinner" it's only a matter of time before their "sin" affects you.

i can't take credit really. this is god's work in all of our lives. i seek his will in my life and i make myself available and i endure. it hasn't been easy, but i'm still working to become more of what he wants me to be. which, ironically enough, is me.

*************
M*W: The difference I have with this statement is that you credit god for working in your life for the good. I give myself credit as well as those who helped me along the way. It was all about me taking the reins of my life and not magically thinking that some supernatural being was the boss of me.

it's not like i try to hurt people for no reason... brow beating or whatever. it's just that a lot of times the truth isn't pretty, and no one wants to see it. no one wants to talk about it. everyone just wants to sweep it under a rug and pretend like it's not really happening...

*************
M*W: Yes, this is true. It's a lot easier to be in denial than to face the truth about oneself of another. That's what I meant about there being no difference between the "sin" and the "sinner." Sometimes we don't want to see the truth (about a person we care about), denial is so much easier (and less painful emotionally) than facing the truth.

But, again, I commend you for wanting to be a foster parent, and I wish for you and your new charge a very happy and endearing relationship for a long time to come.

Give yourself more credit. If there happens to be a god, he gave you the power. If there isn't a god, it's all your own power anyway.

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." ~ Mark Twain

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"I am only one. But still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." ~ Helen Keller, 1880-1968, American Writer and Lecturer

 

[Lori_7]

You already did: earlier, for example, when you stated that those who do not know God, do not know him because they do not want to know him.

I have found this to be true based on my own experience. I have also found confirmation of this in scripture, and in testimony of others. I have also seen expressed by many people. Now, you don't have to believe me and I have no way of reading your intent or judging the state of your "heart". Wouldn't you agree that should be between you and God? I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're trying to place an undue responsibility on me here. I don't mind to discuss with you what I believe based upon what I have found to be true but I am in no way responsible for your life, intentions, or decisions, and have no idea what your experience is except for what you tell me, which I do believe.

Are you omniscient? Am I supposed to think you are omniscient?

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but this is a silly question. I'm not quite sure why it is you seem so defensive. Are you angry with me? All I'm trying to do is answer your questions as correctly and sincerely as I can. Isn't that right?

Why then, for example, did you accuse Glaucon of attacking you when he tried to understand things in his own way?

Because he was attacking me. Maybe his way is to attack? I felt attacked. :shrug:

 

[Yorda]

So presumably some humans should be able to eat some other humans given their being better in certain skill areas.

it doesn't work like that for humans. superior humans aren't even allowed to eat animals! eating a human would make them inferior to other humans.

though i prefer not to consume animals because if another sentient being doen't have to lose their life for me to have mine then i see that as best.

plants are a little sentient too. but they like to be eaten. it feels really good to die. i wish a vampire would eat me...

poor animals. if we don't eat them, maybe they feel unworthy...? like fruits and vegetables... they just live and die... reproduce... if we don't eat them...

i don't agree with you, and i am sorry. i consider things like greed, wrath, envy, lust, pride, gluttony, and sloth to be "wrong".

it's impossible to do wrong because we always have a perfect reason to do what we do.

and i am sorry that i am this way. i don't want to be this way anymore. i want to be changed. you don't think that's reasonable?

sure, whatever works for you.

just because we are different, doesn't mean that we are better or more valuable.

sometimes a flower or a machine can be more valuable than a human.

There is no respect in killing and eating.

god made plants so that we would kill and eat them.

 

[greenberg]

Now, you don't have to believe me and I have no way of reading your intent or judging the state of your "heart".

Yet you have repeatedly assumed to be able to do so.
You have already stated that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God. By stating this, you have implied that you are able to read my intent, judge the state of my heart.

Or, when you said:

can't handle a little light-hearted honesty huh? well, i'm not surprised. most people take gorifying themselves waaaay too seriously.

This was aimed at me, right, or at Enmos or both of us?
So you think this is what I am doing here - "glorifying myself"?
And the way you formulated it - you have left no room for me to even try to tell you otherwise.

Wouldn't you agree that should be between you and God?

You obviously do not think this is the case!
You have already stated that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God.

I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're trying to place an undue responsibility on me here.

No. I want you to see how you impute motivations on other people. How you assume why they do the things they do. Like saying that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God.

Are you omniscient? Am I supposed to think you are omniscient?

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but this is a silly question. I'm not quite sure why it is you seem so defensive. Are you angry with me? All I'm trying to do is answer your questions as correctly and sincerely as I can. Isn't that right?

Why would it be a silly question? I asked you that in reply to what you said:

but i do know that you are no different than i am inherently.

Only an omniscient person can rightfully say such a thing. Nobody else.

Why then, for example, did you accuse Glaucon of attacking you when he tried to understand things in his own way?

Because he was attacking me. Maybe his way is to attack? I felt attacked.

You felt attacked.

But he wasn't attacking you. He only attempted to keep the discussion within the parameters of logical discourse - the parameters that you have set with the way you formulated the title of this thread.

The difference between you and him is that he is educated in this field and that he knows what words like "logic", "deductive", "inductive" etc. mean,
while you are not and you used those words rather freely, to the point of rendering their use in your posts meaningless. He pointed that out.

 

[Enmos]

god made plants so that we would kill and eat them.

Uhm...

there is no god. look it up on google. in this modern age everything is controlled by natural laws so there's no need for fairies and gods anymore. god was invented just because people didn't understand how the world worked. but now we do. it was a natural law that created the universe, not god.

 

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: I commend you for wanting to be a foster parent. I was, several times over. My own children are still close to most of them, and they turned out great... There's a few we've lost touch with, but I know I did my best to be there for them when they were young. It's not an easy job. In my case, I had four children, so what's a few more? My kids always had friends at the house, so we lived like we were in a commune! Oh, but I digress to my hippie days.


*************
M*W: I've heard several christians say this, but what I don't understand is how does one separate the "sin" from the "sinner?" Sure, it's PC to distinguish the two, but I don't think it's possible. It's a cop-out. Please explain to me how you can differentiate between the "sin" and "sinner." I see them as one and the same. You can't have one without the other.

I've known people who had extremely bad behavior, and I gave them all a chance. I tried to help them, but ultimately, it's just a matter of time before their bad behavior affects you. I don't believe you can hate the "sin" but love the "sinner" for an extended period of time, because sooner or later, they'll screw you too. That tells me the "sin" and the "sinner" are the same.


*************
M*W: This was sort of my point. Be proactive, give someone a chance... but be aware that with a "sinner" it's only a matter of time before their "sin" affects you.


*************
M*W: The difference I have with this statement is that you credit god for working in your life for the good. I give myself credit as well as those who helped me along the way. It was all about me taking the reins of my life and not magically thinking that some supernatural being was the boss of me.


*************
M*W: Yes, this is true. It's a lot easier to be in denial than to face the truth about oneself of another. That's what I meant about there being no difference between the "sin" and the "sinner." Sometimes we don't want to see the truth (about a person we care about), denial is so much easier (and less painful emotionally) than facing the truth.

But, again, I commend you for wanting to be a foster parent, and I wish for you and your new charge a very happy and endearing relationship for a long time to come.

Give yourself more credit. If there happens to be a god, he gave you the power. If there isn't a god, it's all your own power anyway.

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." ~ Mark Twain

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"I am only one. But still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." ~ Helen Keller, 1880-1968, American Writer and Lecturer

thank you for your words of encouragement; i appreciate that very much. as far as the love/hate the sin/sinner thing goes, my perspective is that just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to allow them to vicitimize you. you don't even have to have a relationship with them at all. i don't hate the person because people are broken and i'm not a judge. i don't know what people have been through or what makes them want to victimize me or anyone else. i feel sorry for people. many people are dead inside and in pain and lost. many people are so hard hearted that they just don't give a shit about much of anything. many people are afraid and defensive. many people have no sense of self-worth and are co-dependent. people have been lied to and abused and it's a shame. i won't allow them to hurt me if i can help it, but i won't condemn them either. i love them like god loves them.

and this is my credit...i made the decision to invite god in my life, and i do my best to keep up with what he gives me to deal with.

 

[greenberg]

Uhm...

Yeah ...

I think that for many theists, there occurs a deterioration of the ability to think rationally.
Some become unable to use concepts like "some", "all", "none" properly.
Or otherwise state blatant contradictions without blinking an eye.
Their kind of logic could be called fizzly logic.


It all wouldn't be so disturbing were it not that they speak of matters of life and death - moreover of eternal life and eternal death, eternal heaven and eternal hellfire. Just try to fathom eternal hellfire - if such a thing exists, it is the worst there can be. Yet so many theists toss around with these notions flimsily, as if they were talking about Mexican food.

 

[Enmos]

Yeah ...

I think that for many theists, there occurs a deterioration of the ability to think rationally.
Some become unable to use concepts like "some", "all", "none" properly.
Or otherwise state blatant contradictions without blinking an eye.
Their kind of logic could be called fizzly logic.


It all wouldn't be so disturbing were it not that they speak of matters of life and death - moreover of eternal life and eternal death, eternal heaven and eternal hellfire. Just try to fathom eternal hellfire - if such a thing exists, it is the worst there can be. Yet so many theists toss around with these notions flimsily, as if they were talking about Mexican food.

I agree and on top of it all they project these inconsistencies on others constantly.

These sort of statements bother me most:
- "If you do not repent now you will go to hell"
- "God loves you"
- Or when they thank the animals for providing their meat for them to eat when they are saying grace.
..and there are many more examples in this thread.
I guess it's just the pure arrogance of it that bothers me.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

it doesn't work like that for humans. superior humans aren't even allowed to eat animals! eating a human would make them inferior to other humans.

Sounds like you've been hanging out with some very judgemental vegans or something. Most I know are not like that.

 

[greenberg]

Sounds like you've been hanging out with some very judgemental vegans or something. Most I know are not like that.

Well ... Yorda ... might be an online robot or a sociological experiment ... or enlightened ...

It's easy to find Yorda claiming p, and a little later claiming -p. Yorda seems to have absolutely no problem with that ....

:wave:

 

[greenberg]

I agree and on top of it all they project these inconsistencies on others constantly.
...
I guess it's just the pure arrogance of it that bothers me.

I don't think it's actually arrogance.

I am more inclined to think that, given the content of their Christian claims,
to understand non-Christians, to empathize with them, to be able to see and investigate things from different perspectives

would, for the Christians, be tantamount to betraying and denying Christianity.

Surely they wouldn't risk that.

 

[Lori_7]

it doesn't work like that for humans. superior humans aren't even allowed to eat animals! eating a human would make them inferior to other humans.

if superior humans aren't allowed to eat animals, then there must be some benefit to not eating animals. and what do you mean by "superior" exactly, and "allowed" by whom?

plants are a little sentient too. but they like to be eaten. it feels really good to die. i wish a vampire would eat me...

i'm sure you do. have you died yorda? if not, then how might you know how it feels to? and if so, then i have a cd collection and some marks on my wall that testify to the exact opposite sentiment you're claiming here.

now if you're referring to how it feels after you've died, then you feel nothing.

poor animals. if we don't eat them, maybe they feel unworthy...? like fruits and vegetables... they just live and die... reproduce... if we don't eat them...

sounds like a lot of people in this world. maybe we should eat them too. j/k.

i understand what you're saying yorda. it's not my personal preference, but i don't have a problem with people eating animals. it's the way the animals are treated before they die that i have a problem with. it seems obvious that we don't respect or appreciate what we're given in and by this world. we abuse.

it's impossible to do wrong because we always have a perfect reason to do what we do.

i understand that everything happens for a reason and that god can use it all for his good purpose. but many things we do cause pain, sickness, suffering, and death, and i don't like those things. i like it when things are perfect, and permanent. that way we can spend our time enjoying joy and peace forever.

 

[NDS]

and that this lake of fire does not sound to me to be an eternal place of torture, but a place of extinguishment. it is called the second death, so...

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There you go, day and night for ever and ever. Think about it, why would God throw people into a giant lake of fire, unless that lake of fire was meant to burn them? Otherwise, the Bible would have said, "Then God destroyed into non-existence all those who weren't in the Book of Life." It seems pretty obvious that Lake of Fire=Pain and Torture.

it's your choice as to whether or not your name is written in the book of life. if people don't want eternal life, and choose death, they get what they want.

Here's your problem: Death is not an option, since our souls/spirits are ETERNAL. Our two options: Eternal life ot eternal torture. No in between, Lori. Unless you are suggesting that the Bible is wrong and that the Lake of Fire really doesn't exist, and that God really is willing to destroy us as individual souls/spirits.

Now, you talk like humans really are free. Are we really free, or are we powerless and suppressed?

Imagine that a slave back in the 1800's decides one day that he no longer is going going to work 13 hour days in the fields and chooses to not work anymore. The master has unlimited options. The master could kill the slave, rape them (they were considered possessions), torture them, feed them, let them free to the North, etc.

Notice Lori, that the master has all the power and the slave, none. You consider the slave to be free, I don't. You say that a slave who disobeys and gets raped or killed, actually "wanted" or "chose" to be raped or killed.

No, the slave didn't "want to" get raped/killed or "chose to" get raped/killed. They chose to simply deny their master.

Now, if the slave denied the master and the master said: "Okay, choose your fate." Or even if the master gave them three options: Die, be tortured, or go free. Then you could make the claim that the slave "chose" their fate.

But when the master decides the fate of the slave, the master is the one with the power and therefore the true freedom.

In dictatorships like Iran, the people there are not free. They are powerless, and suppressed. Sure they have the "choice" to oppose the government, but they will be killed by the government if they do. Is that really freedom, Lori? Are people under dictatorships free? I don't think so.

Let's also not forget that the only reason, according to the Bible, we are alive right now is because God is allowing us to live. Not because we are choosing to live. God is the one with the power, and the choice. Not us.




Now, with all that in mind, let's look at the verse again:

Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

God, Lori, is the master. He is the one with the power. Understand? He has the power to decide our fate if we disobey him, not us (according to the Bible). If we don't live up to God's standards, he is one with power who decides what happens to us. He can destroy us into non-existence, he can torture us for a while then give us another chance, he could put us in a neutral prison type zone, he could literally do anything he wants with us. It is his choice what to do with us, not our choice.

Lori, is God being forced to throw us into the Lake of Fire? Does he gave a boss? Of course not. He doesn't have to torture us for eternity, he chooses to.

Now, if we died and our names weren't in the Book of Life, and yet at the heaven registration desk God said to us: "I will leave you free to decide whatever fate you want." Then, and only then can you say that people "chose to" or "want to" go to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Yorda]

Uhm...

i can say that god exists or that he doesn't exist... it doesn't matter becos they're just two different perspectives of the same thing (edit: no, that's wrong according to some people). only theosophy is right. because it's the craziest

lol buddha.. he said that there is no self, no nothing. the self is god you know... well it's much more too but

Well ... Yorda ... might be an online robot or a sociological experiment ... or enlightened ...

It's easy to find Yorda claiming p, and a little later claiming -p. Yorda seems to have absolutely no problem with that ....

:wave:

thanks.. yorda's opinions change so fast sometimes. but i will always believe in things like... giants, telekinesis and atlantis.

maybe all of these words don't represent opinions, they're just words (edit#7: don't be silly). words stimulate thoughts

i'm sure you do. have you died yorda?

i have died many many times...

now if you're referring to how it feels after you've died, then you feel nothing.

i have never felt nothing when i have died... i have always felt heaven. seventh heaven. nothing doesn't exist

i would like to die but my mom says i'm not allowed to. if we all just died, we would all be in heaven... no more pain, sickness, suffering and death.

but the snake in eden... doesn't allow us to stay there forever.

lori, don't just focus on the bad things in life... you're much happier if you think about things you like. bad things can't come to our life unless we give our attention to them... and bad has to exist so that we know what good is. bad things are good.

sincerely yours
/the nothing which creates everything

 

[shichimenshyo]

Imagine that a slave back in the 1800's decides one day that he no longer is going going to work 13 hour days in the fields and chooses to not work anymore. The master has unlimited options. The master could kill the slave, rape them (they were considered possessions), torture them, feed them, let them free to the North, etc.

Notice Lori, that the master has all the power and the slave, none. You consider the slave to be free, I don't. You say that a slave who disobeys and gets raped or killed, actually "wanted" or "chose" to be raped or killed.

Well said sir, well said indeed.

 

[Lori_7]

Yet you have repeatedly assumed to be able to do so.
You have already stated that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God. By stating this, you have implied that you are able to read my intent, judge the state of my heart.

it has been my personal experience that when i sincerely desired to know god he showed me himself. it didn't happen overnight. it was a progression, and it seemed like the progression was up to me. the more i opened up, the more he showed me. there's scripture that i interpret as confirmation of this, and i think it's law. i think it's spiritual law, and it says in the bible that god isn't a respector of persons, so what works for me should work for other people too.

This was aimed at me, right, or at Enmos or both of us?
So you think this is what I am doing here - "glorifying myself"?
And the way you formulated it - you have left no room for me to even try to tell you otherwise.

no, it was aimed at "most people" just like i said. why? can you relate to it? why are you being so defensive?

You obviously do not think this is the case!
You have already stated that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God.

it should be between you and god. only you and he know what's going on in your "heart" and in your mind. he knows better than you. i don't think it's an easy thing to do to analyze yourself or be objective about yourself. i wonder though, why do you want to know god? you said you've been trying to for a long time, and i wonder how it is that you've been trying. what methods are you using. are you sure you've considered the consequences of knowing him?

No. I want you to see how you impute motivations on other people. How you assume why they do the things they do. Like saying that those who do not believe in God, do not believe because they do not want to believe in God.

i know that's why i didn't know him. and yeah, i assume the same about you.

Only an omniscient person can rightfully say such a thing. Nobody else.

i'm making an assumption. so you think i'm wrong then?

You felt attacked.

But he wasn't attacking you. He only attempted to keep the discussion within the parameters of logical discourse - the parameters that you have set with the way you formulated the title of this thread.

The difference between you and him is that he is educated in this field and that he knows what words like "logic", "deductive", "inductive" etc. mean,
while you are not and you used those words rather freely, to the point of rendering their use in your posts meaningless. He pointed that out.

yeah, in a shitty way. you know, that's the whole point of this post. i'm not difficult to understand i don't think. when i discuss things with people like my friends and family and co-workers, they don't have a hard time understanding me. they understand me just fine. and then i come out here and try to have a discussion with some of you, and you would think i'm speaking japanese. it seems like some people want to ignore what i say and dwell on how i say it. i think it's because they like to argue and be right. i wish we could understand each other better. i'm not trying to be difficult and i don't think my point is a difficult one to get. do you think that you guys are trying to make it difficult?

 

[greenberg]

yeah, in a shitty way. you know, that's the whole point of this post. i'm not difficult to understand i don't think. when i discuss things with people like my friends and family and co-workers, they don't have a hard time understanding me. they understand me just fine. and then i come out here and try to have a discussion with some of you, and you would think i'm speaking japanese.

it seems like some people want to ignore what i say and dwell on how i say it. i think it's because they like to argue and be right. i wish we could understand each other better.

A big difference bewteen you and some others here is that they are educated, and you are not.
Being educated does tend to make a difference in how people think and speak. This is the whole point of education.

I am quite sure you are going to be offended by this. I am not saying this to offend though, but to point out an obvious fact that you are missing. And it is a fact that can make a lot of difference.

i'm not trying to be difficult and i don't think my point is a difficult one to get.

Your point is impossible to "get" for anyone who thinks logically.

Your posts are full of contradictions, arguments from faith and confidence, blind belief.

You are free to write such posts and hold such a stance - but do not expect much of a discussion then.

I am sure that you get along with some people - especially people who exchange encouraging and supportive messages of agreement with you.

But you are unable to hold your ground in just any discussion.

i think it's because they like to argue and be right.

Have you ever considered that our interest in God might be genuine?
Have you ever considered that we are not lying and not pretending when we say we don't know God?

i wish we could understand each other better.

With an absolutist, condemning outlook like yours? Never.

 

[Lori_7]

A big difference bewteen you and some others here is that they are educated, and you are not.
Being educated does tend to make a difference in how people think and speak. This is the whole point of education.

I am quite sure you are going to be offended by this. I am not saying this to offend though, but to point out an obvious fact that you are missing. And it is a fact that can make a lot of difference.




Your point is impossible to "get" for anyone who thinks logically.

Your posts are full of contradictions, arguments from faith and confidence, blind belief.

You are free to write such posts and hold such a stance - but do not expect much of a discussion then.

I am sure that you get along with some people - especially people who exchange encouraging and supportive messages of agreement with you.

But you are unable to hold your ground in just any discussion.




Have you ever considered that our interest in God might be genuine?
Have you ever considered that we are not lying and not pretending when we say we don't know God?




With an absolutist, condemning outlook like yours? Never.

I'm not offended, but my feelings are very hurt.
I don't understand where this animosity is coming from at all.
It seems that no matter what I do or say, your animosity overrides.
I have a degree in business administration. I majored in accounting.
I have 40 years of living. I'm sorry that I used the wrong word in a sentence.
You asked me a question. I answered it honestly.
I do not have animosity towards you, and I am not condemning you.
I don't have the power to do that, only you do.
I have tried to honestly share my experience with you. And for someone who claims to seriously be interested in the knowing of god, I thought you wanted to know about my experience, so I told you about it. The way that you have rejected me and anything I have to say speaks to me about why you haven't had this experience yourself. You are the one who is shutting the door, not I.

 

[Lori_7]

I have found that an "education" is not required to have a relationship with God. But I'm sure that it takes some experience to find the humility and sincerity that is required. It says in the Bible that you have to be "like a child" to enter the Kingdom of God and from what I have experienced in my own life, and walk with him, I have found that to be true. I would encourage you to ask yourself these questions...

Why do I want to have a relationship with God?
What would be the consequences of that relationship?
Would I be willing to face those consequences?

These are very serious and encompassing questions. I have found in my own life that my will, and the life of my flesh, has been sacrificed to enable my life in the spirit with him. I have also found this life with him to be so much more immensely fullfilling than anything I've ever experienced in the flesh. This is a testimony of sincerity. I am not running for office. I am not co-dependent. I am not concerned with whether you choose to believe me. I am telling you the truth as I have experienced it, whether you choose to believe me or not.

That is the best I can do. And why would you expect anything else from me?