Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
There you go, day and night for ever and ever. Think about it, why would God throw people into a giant lake of fire, unless that lake of fire was meant to burn them? Otherwise, the Bible would have said, "Then God destroyed into non-existence all those who weren't in the Book of Life." It seems pretty obvious that Lake of Fire=Pain and Torture.
Here's your problem: Death is not an option, since our souls/spirits are ETERNAL. Our two options: Eternal life ot eternal torture. No in between, Lori. Unless you are suggesting that the Bible is wrong and that the Lake of Fire really doesn't exist, and that God really is willing to destroy us as individual souls/spirits.
thank you for clearing that up for me. i'm not familiar with the scripture so i honestly didn't know one way or the other. and i'm not suggesting that the bible is wrong simply because i've had god use it too many times to show me the truth about something i've experienced. i've come to the conclusion that it's true regarding some perspective and purpose for which god is using it. in that vein, i don't regard the bible as a book necessarily, but a tool to be used by the author in whatever way he sees fit, given the circumstance. anyway, what i would suggest is to consider how much influence the beast, the devil, and false prophet had in determining their own fate. i mean after all, they're the beast, the devil, and the false prophet. their very roles in the bible serve to epitomize and perpetuate the evil in this world. it has been my experience that evil seeks to destroy itself according to law. so what i am suggesting is that if you look at the consequences of our wrong doings in this world, or our sin, they serve to torture us. we are in pain. i feel it. i see it. and it is due to our poor, and more importantly poor intentioned, choices. we are trapped, we are enslaved, we are sick, we are suffering, and we are dying in the flesh, and we are destroying our environment. quite possibly turning it into our hell.
Now, you talk like humans really are free. Are we really free, or are we powerless and suppressed?
i feel free to make my own choices, the consequence of which are bound by law. i consider the laws of god to be perfect, and inherent in who he is, and that a big part of that law is the allowance of free will according to it. i also feel enslaved by the laws of society, which in many ways are driven by all of our sins. we are all made slaves of our greed, lust, envy, pride, sloth, wrath, and gluttony. how much of your time spent here is directed by greed alone?
Imagine that a slave back in the 1800's decides one day that he no longer is going going to work 13 hour days in the fields and chooses to not work anymore. The master has unlimited options. The master could kill the slave, rape them (they were considered possessions), torture them, feed them, let them free to the North, etc.
Notice Lori, that the master has all the power and the slave, none. You consider the slave to be free, I don't. You say that a slave who disobeys and gets raped or killed, actually "wanted" or "chose" to be raped or killed.
No, the slave didn't "want to" get raped/killed or "chose to" get raped/killed. They chose to simply deny their master.
Now, if the slave denied the master and the master said: "Okay, choose your fate." Or even if the master gave them three options: Die, be tortured, or go free. Then you could make the claim that the slave "chose" their fate.
But when the master decides the fate of the slave, the master is the one with the power and therefore the true freedom.
In dictatorships like Iran, the people there are not free. They are powerless, and suppressed. Sure they have the "choice" to oppose the government, but they will be killed by the government if they do. Is that really freedom, Lori? Are people under dictatorships free? I don't think so.
Let's also not forget that the only reason, according to the Bible, we are alive right now is because God is allowing us to live. Not because we are choosing to live. God is the one with the power, and the choice. Not us.
do you choose not to live? ask yourself what it would take for you to choose not to live in a perfect eternal paradise of peace, love, communion, and joy. i personally can't fathom what kind of mindset or intentions it would take, not to want that. also, what if the owner of the slaves were not just the owner, but their creator, who was an omniscient and omnipotent being because he is the creator, and always acted in the slaves best interest, whether the slaves were to realize that or not? what if, in his possession, the slaves were to be protected from what they did not realize. and what if outside this possession they faced the consequences of what they did not realize? what if the slave was given the free will to make good and bad decisions and then suffered the consequences of those decisions according to a perfect law, which rewarded good decisions with pleasantries and bad decisons with torture? would those consequences not be fair, and directive, and in the best interest of all? what if the slave owner loved the slaves so much, that he allowed them the choice to hurt themselves if that's what they really wanted to do. that is our owner and that is how i see things according to my experience with him. and i think that a lot of people who don't know him are afraid of him because they don't.
Now, with all that in mind, let's look at the verse again:
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
God, Lori, is the master. He is the one with the power. Understand? He has the power to decide our fate if we disobey him, not us (according to the Bible). If we don't live up to God's standards, he is one with power who decides what happens to us. He can destroy us into non-existence, he can torture us for a while then give us another chance, he could put us in a neutral prison type zone, he could literally do anything he wants with us. It is his choice what to do with us, not our choice.
Lori, is God being forced to throw us into the Lake of Fire? Does he gave a boss? Of course not. He doesn't have to torture us for eternity, he chooses to.
Now, if we died and our names weren't in the Book of Life, and yet at the heaven registration desk God said to us: "I will leave you free to decide whatever fate you want." Then, and only then can you say that people "chose to" or "want to" go to the Lake of Fire.
he is the boss because he is who he is. he is the creator. he is the creator of the perfect law that we all live under. but the choice to abide is all yours.
and nds, i want to thank you. after a lot of experiences that i've had here in sciforums, trying to communicate with people about my thoughts and opinion, i want to thank you for being so respectful, kind, humble, and honorable even when that opinion may differ from your own. i enjoy sharing my thoughts and opinions with you. and i don't feel threatened or abused if we differ. thanks.
