Some facts about guns in the US

Then why the hell did you choose to live in such a godforsaken place??? Survival is the first step on Maslow's Hierarchy. No matter how many attractive features a place may have, if it's not safe then no sane person will choose to live there! . . . I assume that everyone who lives there feels the same way you do, so there's at least one gun in every home.

That's a good point.

Overall, in the hands of a competent, law-abiding user, a gun can decrease their odds of being the victim of a violent crime. (Note that I said "competent and law abiding;" a remarkable number of gun owners do not fall in those categories, which is why for the average American safety is decreased by having one in your home.)

However, if the feeling of protection one gets by owning a gun emboldens one to move into an unsafe area, reassured by the idea that their gun will confer a lot of additional protection on them, that gun has just made the owner LESS safe. This is a phenomena known in the skydiving world as Booth's Law, which suggests that devices intended to improve safety can have the opposite effect by enticing the user to take more risks than they otherwise would.
 
Salvation will come to conquer us. No guns allowed. Guns are the most dangerous things to salvation. Only reason and logic will prevail with salvation. Guns will burn.

Pavlov where are you when we need you?

Salivation will come to comfort us. No anti-gun nuts allowed. Anti-gun nuts are the most dangerous things to salivation. Only reason and logic will prevail with salivation. Anti-Gun nuts will dissolve into a pool of drool.

:)
 
Pavlov where are you when we need you?

Salivation will come to comfort us. No anti-gun nuts allowed. Anti-gun nuts are the most dangerous things to salivation. Only reason and logic will prevail with salivation. Anti-Gun nuts will dissolve into a pool of drool.

:)

When I say guns I am referring to anything used as a weapon. Peace is a state of mind. If you want it reason it, make it logical. That's what a man will follow. Why do we need guns if we're safe?
 
...my first thought went out to that poor little girl and the unnecessary mental scars that she will carry the rest of her life because of poor supervision.

Poor supervision... whether swift an violent or slow an subtle... all leave ther scars an can ruin/take lives... some make the headlines an some dont.!!!

my first weapons discharge ever was at around 7 or 8... double barrel 12 gauge with BOTH barrels loaded... both hammers back...
after I picked myself up, I realised the power of the weapon and the lesson never left me.

My first shot(s) occured when i was 10 (over 50 years ago) when my uncle took me squirrel huttin an handed me a (borrowed) double barrel 12 gauge to use.!!!
He ponted out a squirrel to me an i fired an got it... an then when my uncle inspected the gun... wit a inquisitive look he said... "you fired both barrels".!!!

After that i got a 20 gauge pump an i was then brangin home food on a semi-regular basis... rabbit... squirrel... quail... ducks an even pidgins.!!!

I hope the parents are now responsible enough to get her some serious counseling

stupid, stupid mistake

Wit parents/supervisors that stupid stupid to begin wit... i dont have a lot of confidence in them :(
 
Then why the hell did you choose to live in such a godforsaken place???
because when you raise and rehabilitate wolves, you need lots of room and as few people as you can...that is for one.
the fact that I don't have much money and cannot afford to live in a city/urban location is another.
I can live here within my income and still generate extra cash doing what I love (wolves). This means I can provide FAR more for my kids/grand-kids than most people with great paying jobs and living urban lifestyles.
people choose to live in cities and in some cases (certain parts of LA, Chicago, NYC, Miami) the city is FAR more dangerous than where I live

my WIFE points out this: Her and the granddaughters have gone out and slept in the woods by themselves... she has gone out and slept alone in the woods just to enjoy the surroundings... but NO ONE would do that in a city! Would YOU go sleep on a street corner and expect to remain as safe as my wife?


Survival is the first step on Maslow's Hierarchy. No matter how many attractive features a place may have, if it's not safe then no sane person will choose to live there!

I assume that everyone who lives there feels the same way you do, so there's at least one gun in every home. This isn't "safety." This is "survivalism."

Forgive me if the reason you live there is that you're poor and it's all you can afford. SciForums members in the USA, on the average, are middle-class and can afford to live in neighborhoods with very low crime rates, where the residents don't regard a gun as an indispensable appliance like a clothes dryer.
well, I am not the average SciForums member then. I transmit my signal with a shortwave rigged for CB and log into a dial-up speed "missionary net" style IP.

some people think this is simply survival.. true. But this is not any more dangerous than any city I have lived in.

So some people think it is nuts... I am sure that the mountain men and trappers circa 1830's (US / North American continent) were thought of the same way.
it is a choice. perhaps exacerbated by financial and other reasons / situations, but a choice nonetheless.
It teaches safety first in all things, attention to detail, independence, hard work, critical thinking and logic as well as rapid thinking, and so much more! to myself, my kids, grand-kids etc. what is so bad about that?
We generate our own electricity (far cheaper than most people get/buy), get our own fresh water (far better quality than most people, as well as cleaner from a great source), our food is not filled with chemical additives, we have communication, very little pollution (except from outsiders), and we don't have to worry about certain other types of pollution like noise, light, etc...
I would say that my quality of life is FAR better than most people ESPECIALLY those in certain parts of the cities I mentioned!

I would trust anyone around here with my kids / grand-kids. They are all safe, experienced, knowledgeable people (with the exception of 1 family, we are also all prior service as well...). My neighborhood is far safer than ANYONE else neighborhood here, and I can guarantee that.
- Unless some city folk are in the area, or some unknown hunters (the poachers and drunks)... then I would say that it gets unsafe around here. And I don't trust newbies. especially ones that don't know how to move through the woods. too many of yall citified folk crash and lumber through the woods like a herd of epileptic yak's being led by a disco strobe... -

yall might condemn this way of life, but my kids/ grand-kids will be totally self sufficient and will never NEED anyone to live well... and will never NEED like the throw-away society that is currently all the rage, with disposable everything (including relationships)
why the HELL would anyone want to live in all THAT?

:)
 
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When I say guns I am referring to anything used as a weapon. Peace is a state of mind. If you want it reason it, make it logical. That's what a man will follow. Why do we need guns if we're safe?

no...peace is NOT JUST a state of mind!
you can be as peaceful as you wish, but if you are an American (especially a religious one) traveling in certain parts of Afghanistan or the middle east .... no matter HOW peaceful you are, you take your life into your own hands.
Case in point: recently some pastors have been killed in Nigeria, or in other parts of the world... these men were "technically" peaceful and non-threatening, however just their selection of RELIGION was considered an abomination to certain other fanatics.

THEREFORE it is NOT JUST personal peace or belief that keeps you safe. it is also your location and how well protected you are (via local means like police or military)
PEACE and SAFETY are all figments of the imagination, IMHO
and they can be shattered easily depending on the random and malicious world around you... based upon the whims of the mentally unstable

which is the REAL PROBLEM... not the TOOL (gun)
the problem lies with VIOLENCE and CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR
NOT with guns

Wit parents/supervisors that stupid stupid to begin wit... i dont have a lot of confidence in them :(

neither do i
safety first. not as an afterthought.
the stupidity of that instructor and those parents is going to scar that girl for LIFE.
 
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no...peace is NOT JUST a state of mind!
you can be as peaceful as you wish, but if you are an American (especially a religious one) traveling in certain parts of Afghanistan or the middle east .... no matter HOW peaceful you are, you take your life into your own hands.
Case in point: recently some pastors have been killed in Nigeria, or in other parts of the world... these men were "technically" peaceful and non-threatening, however just their selection of RELIGION was considered an abomination to certain other fanatics.

THEREFORE it is NOT JUST personal peace or belief that keeps you safe. it is also your location and how well protected you are (via local means like police or military)
PEACE and SAFETY are all figments of the imagination, IMHO
and they can be shattered easily depending on the random and malicious world around you... based upon the whims of the mentally unstable

which is the REAL PROBLEM... not the TOOL (gun)
the problem lies with VIOLENCE and CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR
NOT with guns



neither do i
safety first. not as an afterthought.
the stupidity of that instructor and those parents is going to scar that girl for LIFE.

You even agree with me. Peace in your opinion is of the imagination or in other words a state of mind. Of course it's not merely a state of mind, it is a lot more than that.

When you travel to the Middle East if you had peace on your side they would bow to you. Lol they get that.
 
When you travel to the Middle East if you had peace on your side they would bow to you. Lol they get that.

last time I was there I sure as HECK didn't want anything other than to be left alone and be left in peace!
that is not what i got.

I tried to be nice and civilized (and accepting without prejudice)

they didn't "bow to me" .... they tried to kill me.
many different ways and times

PEACE is a pipe dream right now... especially as long as there are religions and criminals and cultures that are different (with people who think their culture is better than another)
 
Gray Matters

Truck Captain Stumpy said:

another point I would like to have you consider... which rights are more important? which parents should have their rights revoked... ALL parents make mistakes. It is not the right of one to judge another or even consider themselves ABLE to judge another until they have lived the same life with the same hardships. YOU have been shot at, as have I... it is NOT a fun thing to have happen. Knowing that someone wants to kill you and is willing to try it... so we have had similar experiences there, but in NO WAY can I consider your experience the same as mine. Apples to oranges, right? Basically, I just wanted to point out that the Utopia of one person is the HELL of another... don't read anything other than THAT into the paragraph above, please.

Mistakes? I did some work, when I was a kid, with my father, that I would not have been legally allowed to do if he included it under the proper business. Had I fallen off a roof, mucked up a leg losing control of the rotohammer, or managed an electric shock, yeah, that would not have been good for his parental rights.

When I lived in Oregon, my girlfriend's family was a proper sort of libertarian troupe; people who actually believed in everybody's rights instead of just their own. Real liberty, not the sort of tripe pushed by the new Pauline Evangelism; not the sort of "libertarianism" that gets headlines in our political discourse.

There are many reasons, some of which probably suck. But, to the other, it's hard to argue with their disgust at having childrens' services crashing down on them because their nine year-old daughter broke her arm falling out of a tree.

Then again, I would also note that the father was one of the least responsible gun owners to ever use the phrase "responsible gun owners"; the litany is appalling. And he tells the sorts of gun stories that "responsible gun owners" seem to think hilarious unless someone like me relates it to them, and then they get all angry and defensive about how dare someone besmirch "responsible gun owners" by including this fellow, despite the fact that they would have simply laughed had he told them the story.

But, yeah. All this is just sort of filler. In the end, it's hard to draw the absolute line in the sand; absolute lines erode more quickly than we might expect.

But at the point that one is putting an automatic firearm in the hands of a nine year-old, with the predictable result that someone dies, yes, the parents have unquestionably crossed that line.

To illustrate: Jailhouses are terrible places. They are designed specifically to be unhealthy and to foster more crime. There are plenty of ridiculous violations of human dignity in the standard American jailhouse; having never actually spent a night inside a prison, I couldn't tell you how much worse it actually is. However, in these United States, gaolers who continue to use terms like "correctional" or "rehabilitative" or "peace" officers deserve the utmost scorn for the inherent lie. Our penal system is a growth industry intended to create more crime so that the burgeoning private prisons can make more money.

Still, though, is it really torture to keep the lights on in the jail cells? Is it really torture to set the climate controls to encourage microbial growth and infection? There are people in my political circles who will certainly make the argument that yes, this is definitely a form of torture. More realistically, though, what we can say definitively is that such circumstances not only do nothing to encourage correctional, rehabilitative, or peaceful outcomes, they also specifically encourage the opposite.

To the other, consider what we, the People, were allowed to see of what happened at Abu Ghraib, or what happens at Guantanamo. There is no question that certain of these behaviors and processes are torture.

And in between is this huge gray area wherein people argue and make excuses for violating even their own ethics, speak nothing of ethical convention.

And while torture is an inflated comparison to be certain, the inflation also allows us a better view of the gray area in an ethical consideration.

To wit, I can't tell you the dimensions of the gray area in parenting, but there comes a point at which something is observably beyond the pale.

I can stand at a land border between two political entities—cities, counties, states, provinces, nations, &c.—and while I cannot necessarily tell you when, exactly, you have left one place and entered another, there is also a point where I can say you are clearly on the other side of that border. You know, like if I'm standing near a border marker and require binoculars to see you standing a mile away. At that point, you're clearly in the next state, or some such.

So maybe I might say, "Why do you let your kids ride their dirtbikes on the street? Why do you encourage them to do so?" Setting aside the traffic laws, this would be one of those odd questions of, "Well, yeah, it's an inappropriate decision, but does it constitute disqualifying neglect or criminality?"

And we ask these questions about parents who let their kids get themselves killed.

Does my tween daughter really need a pilot's license? Even still, does she really need to be behind the stick of a FAR 103 aircraft? And, sure, my family is, among other things, a sailboat family, but we don't even send her out solo in Lasers or Sunfish. I can't imagine putting her at the helm of a proper sailing yacht for a long solo voyage.

These come up every once in a while. A few years ago, a teenager died when her Cessna crashed during a solo flight. Recently, a family lost its teenaged daughter, reminding, of course, that she knew the risks, when she set out on a solo trans-Pacific sail.

There is even a low-key debate going on in our culture about liveaboard parenting, and whether that is appropriate for the children.

And it just seems to me that there are some things we might do wherein the risks are so apparent that there is no real excuse for undertaking the endeavor.

Even with the differences 'twixt now and then—these days, you wouldn't take your twelve year-old son up on the roof to clean the gutters, at least not where I live—there are still gray zones in the ethical consideration. After all, I was allowed to walk on the roof of our house when I was eight, in part because my father needed someone to hold the tarpaper in place while he laid new roof shingles.

Setting aside the whole bit about trying to knock Bart off the roof, or Homer putting the claw into his eye, one of the interesting thngs about that gag in The Simpsons Movie is that when I was a kid, there would be no question that it was okay for Bart to be up there with his father's permission and supervision, while that's the sort of thing that might get childrens' services sicced on you today.

Ethical gray zones.

What I don't understand in that context is how the idea of putting an automatic weapon in the hands of a nine year-old, under any circumstances save a war rolling down your street with no path of retreat, falls into any ethical gray zone.

On a barely relevant note, I think of young Mason.

Mason was featured on Penn & Teller's Bullshit! program, in an episode that delved into the question of children, video games, and gun violence. The show called bullshit on the oft-asserted notion that video games are the reason children become violent criminals.

Mason was a young gamer, not even properly tween. His parents had no objection to the violent video games, and even seemed to encourage him to play.

Mason had never fired a gun before. With the parents' permission, P&T asked if he wanted to. He said yes.

They went out to a range with an instructor, who bolted an AR-15 in place, demonstrated how to fire it, and then allowed Mason to step up and squeeze off a few rounds.

Everything went about as well as it could, or so it seems.

The episode continued, and at the end, Penn offered a special commentary coda, apologizing to the audience for not showing them what really happened. And then they played the tape.

Mason squeezed off a few rounds, stepped back from the rifle, removed his safety glasses, removed his earguards, calmly walked to his mother, fell into her arms, and bawled ceaselessly. That gun scared the holy living shit out of the boy.

Penn's last words for the episode: "Sorry, Mason."

I get why they wanted to do it. I get why everyone approved. And I get why, seeing what they had just done to this little boy's mind, Penn wanted nothing more than to undo what just happened. He didn't mean to hurt anyone, but he could not undo the absolute horror he had just seared into the mind of a nine year-old.

And in this comparison, yeah, even setting aside the safety considerations of the Uzi not being fixed in place, I still don't get how putting a fully automatic weapon in the hands of a nine year-old seems like any sort of good idea. That is to say, and perhaps this is just my ignorance, but basic physics would seem to prescribe against putting an automatic firearm in the hands of a nine year-old.

And when we consider questions of which rights and which parents and which bad decisions, I don't see how this falls into a gray zone; it's miles over the line.

But, of course, it's true, I'm not part of the gun culture, don't want to be part of the gun culture, disdain the gun culture in general, and thus can reasonably speculate there is something obvious and fundamental about the outlook of the gun culture and its constituents that I am missing.
 
When I say guns I am referring to anything used as a weapon. Peace is a state of mind. If you want it reason it, make it logical. That's what a man will follow. Why do we need guns if we're safe?

"safe" is a hard nut to pin down.
Relative safety remains within reason, but there is always an edge to civilized behaviors.

I have one weapon rarely used except for maintenance and to maintain familiarity(I need that one as a paranoia pill). It is there just in case civilization as i am accustomed to breaks down. The rest are for hunting (I need them because I can not outrun a deer, nor rabbit, and I can not fly). At 2960 fps, the bullet can outrun everything I'd want to eat.

Aside from all that. I rarely miss whatever I aim at, and everybody likes to do that which they are good at, as do I.
Every time I take a shot, and a deer falls down I experience instant gratification. It ain't quite orgasmic, but i like it none the less. Then follows several hours of skinning, butchering, and packaging. Then follows several months of rich lean red meat, and my body really likes that.

as/re religion
If someone insisted that i convert or they would do me bodily harm. I'd convert in a heartbeat(for awhile), then go back to who I really am.
If someone insisted that i give them my money or they would do me bodily harm, I'd hand it over, then(if a weapon were available) shoot them in the back.

People should not go around threatening bodily harm. It is damned uncivilized.

..............
gun control = hit what you aim at and nothing else.
 
"safe" is a hard nut to pin down.
Relative safety remains within reason, but there is always an edge to civilized behaviors.

I have one weapon rarely used except for maintenance and to maintain familiarity(I need that one as a paranoia pill). It is there just in case civilization as i am accustomed to breaks down. The rest are for hunting (I need them because I can not outrun a deer, nor rabbit, and I can not fly). At 2960 fps, the bullet can outrun everything I'd want to eat.

Aside from all that. I rarely miss whatever I aim at, and everybody likes to do that which they are good at, as do I.
Every time I take a shot, and a deer falls down I experience instant gratification. It ain't quite orgasmic, but i like it none the less. Then follows several hours of skinning, butchering, and packaging. Then follows several months of rich lean red meat, and my body really likes that.

as/re religion
If someone insisted that i convert or they would do me bodily harm. I'd convert in a heartbeat(for awhile), then go back to who I really am.
If someone insisted that i give them my money or they would do me bodily harm, I'd hand it over, then(if a weapon were available) shoot them in the back.

People should not go around threatening bodily harm. It is damned uncivilized.

..............
gun control = hit what you aim at and nothing else.

so by your own admission you'd be perfectly willing to murder another human being. and yet you think the people who want strong gun control are the amoral ones
 
so by your own admission you'd be perfectly willing to murder another human being. and yet you think the people who want strong gun control are the amoral ones

I am a very mild fellow and have never in my entire life started a fight, and I pretty much expect the same from other human beings, and have never tolerated deviation from that level of civilization.
Should someone choose to behave in a threatening uncivilized manner, then it is/has been their choice to throw off the constraints embodied within civilization.
The reverse of the golden rule applies.

Everyone (every sane adult) should take full personal responsibility for all of their actions, all of the time.

If I were to threaten you, would you not defend yourself?
 
NRA on the ball..

Never one to show any sense or sensitivity for that matter, two days after the 9 year old girl accidentally shot an instructor at a shooting range after she lost control of an Uzi she was allowed to use, the NRA decided to feature children and shooting ranges in their latest tweet, linking all the ways for kids to have fun at a shooting range..

Less than two days after a 9-year-old girl in Arizona accidentally shot and killed a gun range instructor who was showing her how to fire an Uzi, the National Rifle Association on Wednesday touted new ways for children to "have fun" at shooting ranges.

The nation's largest gun lobby posted a tweet Wednesday afternoon to its NRA Women account that read "7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range." The tweet included a link to an article with the same title published on the website of Women's Outdoor News. A little over an hour after posting it, NRA Women deleted the tweet without explanation.

The story linked in the tweet lists a number of new and colorful targets that it says will engage young shooters who have grown bored with the standard bull's-eye. In describing a pack of zombie targets, the author, Mia Anstine, writes that children "can imagine they're getting rid of the monsters from their nightmares."



The Arizona shooting has prompted a heated national debate over what guns are safe for use by minors, even under supervision. Experts agree that an Uzi was the wrong choice for a 9-year-old girl.

The timing of the NRA's tweet appears to be linked to this debate. Anstine's column about children's shooting targets was posted on August 20, almost a week before the Arizona shooting. Why the NRA would decide to push out this column to the more than 7,000 followers of its "NRA Women" account is unclear. The NRA did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


 
tiassa said:
I recognize that gun culture is nearly a foreign land to me, so it would seem that there is something about how this tragedy came to be that I must necessarily be missing. Hence, what is the conventional wisdom among gun enthusiasts on putting an automatic firearm in the hands of a nine year-old?
Where I grew up, essentially everyone owned a gun. Rural western Minnesota, just south of the Red River valley, north end of the Minnesota River valley, all the farmers and the majority of the townies had at least one shotgun somewhere on the premises, and usually a 22 or bigger as well - handguns were rare, though. I never saw a private handgun, in a community where the big kids brought their 22s to school for 4H and Boy Scout merit badge instruction (kept in their locker, unloaded and carefully sequestered, if they expected to earn that merit badge), seeing a teenager with a varmint rifle walking his dad's back forty was routine, and during deer or pheasant season many farmers kept a weapon on the tractor with them in case of opportunity. The sheriff kept one in his official vehicle, mostly for putting down animals hit by cars or otherwise endangering people iirc, but it doubtless came in handy as a personal threat now and again.

Does that qualify as gun culture? If so then I can say without qualification that any rifle in the hands of a nine year old would have been spoken of as shocking parental negligence or extreme bad news of some kind, in that gun culture. Failing a relative stepping in, the minister would have had a word with the adults responsible if they were churched, and the sheriff would have represented the community if they weren't. The event would have been viewed as a breakdown of culture in need of restoration, not an example.

fraggle said:
Forgive me if the reason you live there is that you're poor and it's all you can afford. SciForums members in the USA, on the average, are middle-class and can afford to live in neighborhoods with very low crime rates, where the residents don't regard a gun as an indispensable appliance like a clothes dryer.
Poor and criminal neighborhoods in the US have lower rates of gun ownership than the middle class and safer ones. The correlation of gun prevalence and crime rates is negative, in general.
 
I am a very mild fellow and have never in my entire life started a fight, and I pretty much expect the same from other human beings, and have never tolerated deviation from that level of civilization.
Should someone choose to behave in a threatening uncivilized manner, then it is/has been their choice to throw off the constraints embodied within civilization.
The reverse of the golden rule applies.

Everyone (every sane adult) should take full personal responsibility for all of their actions, all of the time.

If I were to threaten you, would you not defend yourself?
don't play shit with me. this isn't about self defense. this about you admiting you would kill in what amounts to cold blood. if there back is turned no longer a threat. again by your own admission your ok with murdering someone. and no matter how you lie and spin you fucking said it.
 
Poor and criminal neighborhoods in the US have lower rates of gun ownership than the middle class and safer ones. The correlation of gun prevalence and crime rates is negative, in general.

which doesn't mean guns cause the lower crime. and everything else we know shows otherwise. not to mention the fact you over looked the general trend of income levels and crime overall. guns don't reduce crime. its been proven false in every study with good methodology.
 
don't play shit with me. this isn't about self defense. this about you admiting you would kill in what amounts to cold blood. if there back is turned no longer a threat. again by your own admission your ok with murdering someone. and no matter how you lie and spin you fucking said it.

Did I ever post I would kill another human being? Read back, and you will see that your impression was all in your mind. I keyboarded in the word "shoot".
With an appropriate weapon, I could easily disable the criminal so that (s)he would await the arrival of the police. Look at your average battle statistics, and you will see that the number of wounded usually outnumber the number of killed.

Please do try to arrest your prejudices, and read what it is that I actually posted.
 
which doesn't mean guns cause the lower crime. and everything else we know shows otherwise. not to mention the fact you over looked the general trend of income levels and crime overall. guns don't reduce crime. its been proven false in every study with good methodology.

Possibly crime may go down when everyone is armed, but accidental deaths go up along with the number of guns. My question, does it make a difference if i get killed by a robber (on purpose) or a nine year old (by accident)? Guns are specifically invented for killing things at long range; assault weapons, such as Uzis are invented as weapons of war for mass killing at long range.
OTOH, shotguns were invented for hunting fowl and have a relatively short effective range, thus are much safer than high powered rifles or submachine guns. Unless handled by ex-vice-president Cheney.
 
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