Sociopaths

Fraggle Rocker said:
I find no evidence to indicate that sociopaths have a very high rate of parenthood.
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When you say high rate of parenthood, are you referring to actual kids being born? Or the actual act of having and then raising the kids?

My experience with a female narcissistic sociopath, was she was an incredible baby making machine and as of a couple of years ago she had 5 kids with 3 different men and takes care of none of them. No the fathers don't care for them either. But what can you expect when personality disorder teams up with Meth and that whole way of life. IMO it's a damn good thing she's not taking care of them.
 
The thing is, nature is generally cruel...but mostly we humans evolved and do as we do now as a social species...we don't do well on our own...so people who alienate others too much may have gotten selected against when living in tribal bands.

I suspect sociopathy to be a competing genetic strategy, maybe. Rather like human cuckoos, they often seem to abandon their young.

Yes, some do stay.
But those of us who grew up in an abusive household have to remember: each dysfunctional family is unique, we have to look at the stats, not globalize our own experiences.

If sociopathy became the norm, or even a critical mass of the minority, society would break down, but so long as there's only a small number of these parasitic beings, then they can continue to subsist off the rest of us, and everything keeps ticking over okay.

As far as brain structure goes, there seems to be variance of brain structure for all sorts of things.
I hope to be a therapist at some point, but I do worry that neuropsychiatric advances are going to so completely transform the field as to render talk therapy primitive and comparatively useless by comparison.
Actually also hope, I guess...if it's just a matter of a few sessions with a machine to fix up profoundly ill people-well, that's wonderful.

as i said before that living with them as well as the types of people they are closest to and keep as long-term friendships
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Yes, but they would have picked people most like themselves in warping...selection bias.
 
Yes, but they would have picked people most like themselves in warping...selection bias.
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yes, i know which means you come into contact with more different types of sociopaths so would have more knowlege about them.

this is just one of the subjects that personal experience and especially if you grow up in a household which has one or more and that due to association of the sociopaths brings you into more contact will give much more insight into reality of their world, how they operate and the types of people they befriend. it's like field work or actual experience vs reading about it. which do you think is going to give you more insight? where do you think the authorities get thier info? from those who had the experience. duh? only that it's very incomplete. the mental health sector as well as the studying and understanding the brain is really in it's infancy and there is a lot they don't know either. they gather the knowledge as it comes. who do you think you are going to learn more from with this type of subject? a textbook or someone who had direct experiences with them or with some people, several? professionals get to interview them, victims lived with them. they know a hell of a lot more. for instance, popular beliefs do not constitute the truth. a person with experience can dispel some notions or stereotypes too. this is not a subject like math which pertains to everyone because it affects everyone in their life and don't need another to have experience with "math" to relay it to them. this is the type of subject that is dependent on experience with sociopaths. not that hard to figure out as it's contextually different type of subject. not everyone has had experience with or as much experience with sociopaths just as not everyone has had a loved one murdered or been raped or abducted etc.

again, they aren't all single, non-connected, friendless, marriageless, must kick a dog just for the hell of it if they run across one etc. that is just a caricature of perhaps that fit some.

they are all individuals. some like to murder, some like to rape, some like to beat their wives, some like to torture animals, some like little boys, some like little girls. get the picture?

use some common sense. geezus
 
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birch said:
yes, i know which means you come into contact with more different types of sociopaths so would have more knowlege about them.
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No, I'm not saying that I have more knowledge than you do. If I end up working for CPS now...

What I'm saying is one of the things you learn even as the rank undergrad I am...you *cannot* ever give in to the temptation to globalize your own experience and assume it holds true for all holders of that experience.


You have to look at objective research data. That's why you don't do the fieldwork until you have the degree, at least in part..so that rather than globalizing what you see in one family or one group, you put it in a frame.

Since your assertion is that people like your stepfather wouldn't be studied, and I don't discount that...what you'd want to be looking for is case histories of trauma survivors who'd suffered similar experiences to yours...that would give you an idea of how prevalent cold, controlled sadists like him are in the population.

Noting in passing there's a lot of families in which one child-and I think it is more likely to be the stepchild-becomes the victim of a sadistic parent, while the other kids are treated normally...a really scary self-published account of this is "A child called 'It'" by Dave Pelzer.

Each evil bastard is going to be a little bit unique, yet share characteristics with other evil bastards.
 
chimpkin said:
No, I'm not saying that I have more knowledge than you do. If I end up working for CPS now...

What I'm saying is one of the things you learn even as the rank undergrad I am...you *cannot* ever give in to the temptation to globalize your own experience and assume it holds true for all holders of that experience.


You have to look at objective research data. That's why you don't do the fieldwork until you have the degree, at least in part..so that rather than globalizing what you see in one family or one group, you put it in a frame.

Since your assertion is that people like your stepfather wouldn't be studied, and I don't discount that...what you'd want to be looking for is case histories of trauma survivors who'd suffered similar experiences to yours...that would give you an idea of how prevalent cold, controlled sadists like him are in the population.

Noting in passing there's a lot of families in which one child-and I think it is more likely to be the stepchild-becomes the victim of a sadistic parent, while the other kids are treated normally...a really scary self-published account of this is "A child called 'It'" by Dave Pelzer.

Each evil bastard is going to be a little bit unique, yet share characteristics with other evil bastards.
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i never globalized mine as being the only type of sociopath, did i? if you read my posts, i made it clear that they differ. why is that? because i know they do as i stated "because" of the closer associations of sociopaths with other sociopaths (as equals), you can observe a variety. even that one experience right there would prove they are not all the same.

let's take for instance, your boyfriend who used you for mooching money. we know that the general traits of sociopaths are a rough estimate that they have in common but it does not mean that sociopaths all express it in the exact same way. how do we know this? we know that there are sociopaths who their thing may be date rape drugs or serial raping, others such as your boyfriend using others for money, priests who their thing is raping altar boys, others who abuse animals etc.

sociopaths have thier own personalities, interests, tastes, preferences etc just like anyone else. the similarities are the "core" value systems which cause the particular behavior traits, not the exact way it's expressed.

also, many of those animal abusers that are showcased on animal cops are probably sociopaths too. do people really think that they have no family, friends, jobs, associates, connections? of course that isn't true. it's unrealistic.


i only used my experience to shed light on some sociopathic traits and for the purpose they don't all fit a narrow template. it's actually literally backwards to accuse me of globalizing my experience as being the only type of sociopath when it was the exact opposite of what my point has been! this is unbelievable! i used the example because from personal experience i know they do have connections, friends, marriages, children etc. it's very clear from the thread if you go back and read it! actually it was more others who try to paint sociopaths into a more narrower and caricatured box as if they walk around with no personality or individual traits of their own except for 'sociopathy'.

as for the 'field work' issue, you took that out of context. it just meant that this type of subject depends on knowledge from experience with sociopaths.

as for case studies etc and what you state, i already know about that. also, many cases go unreported so that is not accurate either as far as numbers. it's a guesstimate but does show cases of people who have cases with some similarities though not exactly alike.
 
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as for the 'field work' issue, you took that out of context. it just meant that this type of subject depends on knowledge from experience with sociopaths.

as for case studies etc and what you state, i already know about that. i'm not trying to sound egotistical or all-knowing, it's just i'm already aware with this subject.
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Fair enough, then. I feel like I've talked about this as much as I really want to for the time being.
:yawn:
 
Although there is some variation in reports regarding the number of sociopaths in a given population, for the United States the figure is estimated to be at around four percent overall. Others estimate the rate at four percent of males and at one percent of females. This difference may be attributed to the fact that women have learned to place a higher value on "caring" or "interpersonal responsiveness" based on familial experiences with their mothers as role models (Stout 176). This is a curious finding given that females have a greater genetic proclivity for sociopathy, the difference can then be attributed to the greater impact environment and learning have on males than on females (Mealey). Also in some Asian societies (Japan, China and India), the figure is lower possibly because there is a greater emphasis on family and familial responsibility at an early age (Stout 178). Specifically in Japan and China the figures are estimated to be between 0.03 and 0.14 percent! How can one explain the hundred-fold increase between the rates in the US and in Asia? Is it that Western culture is toxic/deleterious? Does Western culture promote sociopathy? Or does Eastern culture discourage it?

Perhaps sociopathy is a Western disease. In the United States the demise of not just the extended but the immediate family as well, the high divorce rate, the over-emphasis on individualism, exalting maverick behavior, anonymity and the lack of a sense of community, are all environmental factors that could contribute to the high rate of sociopaths. Yet to be determined is whether Asian cultures that are embracing to a large extent Western culture experience a commensurate increase in the number of sociopaths in their societies as they ‘progress'.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/2529
 
quinnsong;

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/2529[/QUOTE]

Its impossible to know the number of sociopaths or potential sociopaths. Some factors where you would see it surface more are societies that have more freedoms do we need to go into this further? I hope not. It is not a xenophobic disorder.

Chimpkin,

Again people who are not nice to you under all circumstances does not mean that person is a sociopath and sometimes\most of the time it is a bad combination of the two people or familiarity breeding contempt.

Fraggle, if a sociopath gets what he\she wants in a relationship then they can have successful relationships. Seems pretty obvious since sociopaths need to get their way...NEED to win an argument etc.
 
KilljoyKlown said:
When you say high rate of parenthood, are you referring to actual kids being born? Or the actual act of having and then raising the kids?

My experience with a female narcissistic sociopath, was she was an incredible baby making machine and as of a couple of years ago she had 5 kids with 3 different men and takes care of none of them. No the fathers don't care for them either. But what can you expect when personality disorder teams up with Meth and that whole way of life. IMO it's a damn good thing she's not taking care of them.
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heh, sociopaths are in and amongst society. they do NOT usually stand out. that's why they are a 'socio'-path.

as for parenthood, sociopaths can raise their children just like anyone else, be married, have jobs, have friends, etc.

what is really sad is that it's usually the victims that society wants to blame or try to find some way to transfer those traits superficially to the victim. this is because admitting that sociopaths are part and parcel of society means that society is interacting and accepting them which means they would have to look at themselves and their level of sociopathy or overlooking it.


also, the number of friends has nothing to do with whether someone is a sociopath or not. it's ludicrous to believe that. as if assholes don't have friends, gays don't have friends, christians don't have friends, atheists don't have friends etc. they may not all be friends with "eachother" but they find their like. some sociopaths are highly connected (doesn't really take much unusual knowledge to know this one) and have many friends and associates who support them.

there are people who are such victims that they fall out of society. they are the ones who usually don't have much connection to the mainstream world. some may turn to alcohol or drugs. some become homeless, some are runaways or end up in institutions. they are in a lot of pain. if your life goes in a way that is spiraling out of control, then there really is no way to have or construct a 'normal' life since most of their time will be spent on dealing with their issues or inner demons. sadly, though there is a person in there somewhere with their own dreams, personality, interests etc, their issues may be too overwhelming and be the defining aspect of their life. some may eventually work themselves out of it, if it's too severe they never may.

the only reason sociopaths can function better is because they are the predators rather than the victim.

Fraggle, if a sociopath gets what he\she wants in a relationship then they can have successful relationships. Seems pretty obvious since sociopaths need to get their way...NEED to win an argument etc.
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they don't need to do this when they are with another sociopath as they will be in agreement more than in conflict. sociopaths are people just like everyone else and they find people who are as immoral as they are. there are others like them out there. society would like to believe that it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
 
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John99 said:
quinnsong;

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/2529
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Its impossible to know the number of sociopaths or potential sociopaths. Some factors where you would see it surface more are societies that have more freedoms do we need to go into this further? I hope not. It is not a xenophobic disorder.

American society does produce more sociopaths/psychopaths than others( 85%of serial killers are from America)however, I did not say it is a xenophobic disorder but I certainly think American culture which promotes narcissism encourages and fosters sociopathic behavior .I am curious as to what factors in free sociteies cause sociopathy to surface more?
 
American society does produce more sociopaths/psychopaths than others( 85%of serial killers are from America)however, I did not say it is a xenophobic disorder but I certainly think American culture which promotes narcissism encourages and fosters sociopathic behavior .
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A narcissist is not always a sociopath. Dont confuse people being confident with sociopathy. Confidence is what everyone aspires for does not matter where the dirt under your feet happens to be.

quinnsong said:
I am curious as to what factors in free sociteies cause sociopathy to surface more?
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Having the freedom to do what you want without the government keeping tabs on everything a person does. Keeping people "in line" means they would be less likely to stray too far off the path if at all.
 
Or does Eastern culture discourage it?
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From what I learned in Cultural Studies? yes, Eastern culture does. And, John99, it has nothing to do with the government...it's the parents that spend a lot of time stressing the child's obligation to the parents-as in "What you did made Mommy lose face." "You have to do work hard and make A's to show what good parents we are."

In other words, they instill guilt in their kids.
And this seems to be good for society.

Guilt is good?

Not always...I can't find their suicide stats; but paradoxically, considering their generally lower rates of depression, their suicide rates are high:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/26/asia.suicide/
 
And quinn, there are plenty of serial killers in other countries. You just dont read or hear about them often.
 
John99 said:
A narcissist is not always a sociopath. Dont confuse people being confident with sociopathy. Confidence is what everyone aspires for does not matter where the dirt under your feet happens to be.

Dont confuse narcissism w/ confidence John! No a narcissiist is not necessarily a sociopath but they do have much in common. My personal experience with my brother who is a sociopath and many of my younger narcissistic relatives gives me a pretty good handle on the differences![/COLOR

]Having the freedom to do what you want without the government keeping tabs on everything a person does. Keeping people "in line" means they would be less likely to stray too far off the path if at all.
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America does produce more sociopaths/psychopaths but having freedom is not the reason why. Try again!
 
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quinnsong said:
America does produce more sociopaths/psychopaths but having freedom is not the reason why. Try again!
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You do realize that when you see lists of serial killers those are know\captured serial killers and not counting those that go undetected or unsolved. Countries with harsh\immediate penalties do deter serial killers. They usually have a sense of self preservation. Realistically, and if you look at things intelligently, the higher the population the higher the chances of people that would fit into being classified as sociopath or psychopaths.
 
chimpkin said:
From what I learned in Cultural Studies? yes, Eastern culture does. And, John99, it has nothing to do with the government...it's the parents that spend a lot of time stressing the child's obligation to the parents-as in "What you did made Mommy lose face." "You have to do work hard and make A's to show what good parents we are."

In other words, they instill guilt in their kids.
And this seems to be good for society.

Guilt is good?

Not always...I can't find their suicide stats; but paradoxically, considering their generally lower rates of depression, their suicide rates are high:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/26/asia.suicide/
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Sociopaths do not feel guilt and so this would not determine the % of sociopaths in their society.
 
@ birch

This thread has pretty well talked about what a sociopath is, and it's agreed that it's a problem without a cure, at least at the individual level. But I think society at the national government level could do something. You might be asking yourself what could that possibly be? I'm somewhat reluctant to discuss the solution, because it involves an issue that most people consider a God given right and not something the government has any right to regulate.

Anyway before I get into that, lets talk about some of the possible causes of personality disorders. Some people think those people are born that way, others think environment plays a big part and then there's the luck of the draw on parents. What I think is it's probably a mix of all of those and maybe some other reasons less known. The fact remains that no matter what a child’s potential is at birth, his chances go up tremendously if it's a wanted child with a caring mother and father in a stable relationship and there's a nice home and financial stability. If both parents have taken classes on child rearing and how to be in a good relationship, that would be a big bonus and if the child does have an identifiable disorder, additional classes that enhance specific knowledge would be even more helpful.

I'm sure everybody agrees that that would be great if it was possible. Okay hears the catch, the solution requires that we the society develop a vaccine against pregnancy and administer it at a young age, 7 or 8 I would think, and of course there would be a way to reverse the effect of the vaccine when the couple wanting a child became qualified. I can already hear peoples angry thoughts, but really now, it wouldn't be much different than getting a drivers license . Think about it, what's more important than the welfare of the nations children. How tough is it to believe that every child born has a right to a good start in life and know that society could make it happen and they don't.

In 20 years what would this country be like if every child born after today was a wanted child with two parents in a stable relationship both financially and emotionally?
 
John99 said:
You do realize that when you see lists of serial killers those are know\captured serial killers and not counting those that go undetected or unsolved. Countries with harsh\immediate penalties do deter serial killers. They usually have a sense of self preservation. Realistically, and if you look at things intelligently, the higher the population the higher the chances of people that would fit into being classified as sociopath or psychopaths.[/QUO

Okay John, China has 1.6 billon people what is the percentage of sociopath/pychopath in their population?
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