Show that there is *religiously* motivated violence

I don't think you really are in any position to judge.

The individual believes they are motivated by their religious beliefs. If he came out and said he heard voices in his head that motivated him, that would be his motivation. Those voices or his religous beliefs could be caused by his mental illness, but he believes he was motivated by it.

Do you understand now?


dunno
perhaps a lobotomy might help me to get into that train of thought.

a first psychopath claims aliens made him kill
we typically do not assign blame to wells, spielberg or scifi in general.

a second psychopath claims god made him kill
now we are treated to the sight of rabid trolls fanatically blaming scripture
What I have been saying for pages and pages now is that he believes he was motivated by his religious beliefs.


and? then what? we let him walk with an insanity plea? that is an exemplary example of "*religiously* motivated violence"?

what this thread should show is that there are no easy associations and especially any that involve psychopaths. one would think you would be cognizant of that fact after "pages and pages"

The most well-known event associated with The Catcher in the Rye is arguably Mark David Chapman's murder of John Lennon. Chapman identified with the novel's narrator to the extent that he wanted to change his name to Holden Caulfield. On the night he shot Lennon, Chapman was found with a copy of the book in which he had written "This is my statement" and signed Holden's name. Later, he read a passage from the novel to address the court during his sentencing. Daniel Stashower speculated that Chapman had wanted Lennon's innocence to be preserved by death, inspired by Holden's wish to preserve children's innocence despite Holden's later realization that children should be left alone​
yeah
comprehension was a problem but no matter, the book inspires violence
 
GeoffP,


Didn't see it?
Wit sometimes appears magical to those who have none.

That's probably why I didn't see it.
Next time, let me know when you attempt magic.


Ah. Then I trust you will be no agent of it.


An explanation of what it is would be very helpful.


...soo...you don't even understand my response to your own allusion.

New low.


Not even wtf you wrote, nevermind understand wtf you're trying get across.


Already did. A multitude of times. Thanks for playing.


Obviously, you need to elaborate, because your explanations aren't cutting it.



I've a better one: a man kills his homosexual neighbour because he claims it's an offense before God. A simple perusal of the Bible finds a few hits in Leviticus that specify that homosexuals should be put to death. Is such a man religious or not religious? Is that religiously-motivated violence?


Okay. Explain where this act is motivated by religion. Does religion come from the Bible? Or does it come from the person? If it comes from the Bible, please explain it, as it is, within the Bible?

Now explain to me why it isn't possible that the man kills his neighbour because he simply enjoys killing, or he hates homosexuals, or, he read the Bible and thought...ah!

Even if the man was religious, and he killed his neighbour because he reads the Bible, how do you know his action was motivated by religion?
A psycopath may enjoy killing middle-aged women without blinking, but at the same time not harm any of the middle-aged women in his family. IOW, understanding violence is not as simple as putting two and two together to make four.

Why don't we see violence in the name of religion among the everyday people, if there is such a thing as ''religiously motivated violence''?



Here's another: a man gives $200 to a local outreach ministry to buy blankets for the poor, citing Jesus' commandment to help the poor. A simple perusal of the Bible finds, indeed, such an order. Is such a man religious or not religious? Is that religiously-motivated charity?


That man may be religious, but the motivation to do good comes from himself.
If you think about it, it has to.

Now can you answer my question please.
Thanks in advance.


jan.
 
Okay. Explain where this act is motivated by religion. Does religion come from the Bible? Or does it come from the person? If it comes from the Bible, please explain it, as it is, within the Bible?
Yes, Christianity comes from the Bible!

Why don't we see violence in the name of religion among the everyday people, if there is such a thing as ''religiously motivated violence''?
We do! We see it all the time! Why not more often? Perhaps due to a hundred years of science, secularism, and the fact that the Church isn't in charge of society any more. But in some rural areas, religion still rules:


Child sacrificed, liver offered to gods: Indian police

RAIPUR, India — A seven-year-old Indian girl was murdered in a tribal sacrifice and her liver offered to the gods to improve crop growth, police in the central state of Chhattisgarh said on Sunday.

The body of Lalita Tati was found in October one week after her family reported her missing.

"A seven-year-old girl was sacrificed by two persons superstitiously believing that the act would give a better harvest," Narayan Das, the police chief of Bijapur district, told AFP by telephone.

The two men was arrested on Wednesday on suspicion of killing the girl and offering her liver to the gods in a grisly tribal ceremony. Police said the men had confessed to the crime.

The girl was murdered in a jungle district of Chhattisgarh that is a stronghold of rebel Maoists who have tapped into disaffection among local tribal groups.

Human sacrifices occasionally make headlines in deeply religious and superstitious India, and usually occur in poor areas where some people revere practitioners of black magic.

Two suspected child sacrifices were reported in Chhattisgarh in 2010, while in the same year the decapitated body of a factory worker was found in a temple in the eastern state of West Bengal.

The victims are often ritually killed by witchdoctors to appease gods, spirits or deities.​
 
GeoffP,

That's probably why I didn't see it.
Next time, let me know when you attempt magic.

No no: it appears as magic. That's the trick.

An explanation of what it is would be very helpful.

I couldn't agree more, but I leave explanation of magic (or its purporting) to those more firmly invested in it. In short: does God mind you two misrepresenting the debate so much for His sake? I mean, I was given to understand that lying was a sin in Judeo-Christian philosophy. Is that not the case?

Not even wtf you wrote, nevermind understand wtf you're trying get across.

Oh go on, give it a dekko. I don't give atheists a pass on their atrocities.

Obviously, you need to elaborate, because your explanations aren't cutting it.

"Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?"

(Mark 8:18)


Okay. Explain where this act is motivated by religion.

Just did. Where do you think religion comes from, Jan? Nowhere? The fairies?

Does religion come from the Bible? Or does it come from the person? If it comes from the Bible, please explain it, as it is, within the Bible?

Well, there's Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13...

Now explain to me why it isn't possible that the man kills his neighbour because he simply enjoys killing, or he hates homosexuals, or, he read the Bible and thought...ah!

And has found motivation. Why does he hate homosexuals in the first place? Could it be that he knows of the above religious injunctions against homosexuality? Let's say that he does, and kills his gay neighbour for that precise reason: Leviticus 20:13. What then?

Even if the man was religious, and he killed his neighbour because he reads the Bible, how do you know his action was motivated by religion?

It would probably readily be apparent from his contacts, behaviours and habits, to say nothing of any statement of his own. If these are insufficient, then it is now sufficient to say that no action can have motivation: and, again, we revert to the "Brownian human free will model" as described above.

Why don't we see violence in the name of religion among the everyday people, if there is such a thing as ''religiously motivated violence''?

Because most people don't believe in that nonsense anywhere so firmly as our example case, above.

That man may be religious, but the motivation to do good comes from himself.
If you think about it, it has to.

Not entirely, sorry. Motivation is derived from many places. Why does the man do good at all? From what is this internal, personal motivation derived? Where did he get the idea?
 
I have possibly said something like that, and in context.

The irony..

But I have never said:


- This is what you project.
As I said before, figure of speech.

Do you not consider a mini to be provocative clothing now?

No, I didn't, and you never understood my stance, because you insist on projecting your own stance into mine.
Do you want me to go back and find it all for you Wynn? Trust me, it won't be a good look for you if I do. Then again, you told a victim of child sex abuse that she was responsible for being raped when she was 4 years of age, so apparently, to you, motivation does exist, just not religious ones.

However, it appears that you believe that "motivation" essentially boils down to "excuse."
Or at least you appear to believe that some people think of "motivation" as "excuse."
"I couldn't help myself, I was motivated by it" - this is what you believe some people mean by "motivation"?
Well since there is obviously no such thing as 'motivation', in Wynn Land especially...

You seem to be mixing up my stance with yours. Do try to keep up Wynn.

I will make it simple for you. If one commits a crime, their motivation, as real as that is, is not an excuse. It is still a criminal act.

I am sure you cannot help believing some of the twisted things you believe, but it is not an excuse.

I never said that.
Figure of speech Wynn.

I wouldn't want to have your mind ...
No, you would not. Because my mind isn't twisted and sociopathic, and I have something called understanding and empathy, which you seem to lack. I understand the consequences of my actions and my words, you do not.

And what do you think is wrong with that?

Where did I say anything about beating anyone to death?

You quoted me - I said -

An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again).
What is wrong with that?

This was the question I asked:

what the proper cause is for a priest/pastor to beat someone to death during an exorcism? What motivates a priest to even perform exorcisms?


And you responded with:


An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again).

And you ask if I think there is something wrong with that?

I do not think many people share that spirit with you.
I forget, you just don't get sarcasm, do you?

Oh, you probably do believe you are a good, kind person, and that others can profit from you by simply being in the same room with you.
Not at all.

Are you looking for a social cue again, Wynn?
 
dunno
perhaps a lobotomy might help me to get into that train of thought.

Oh, I thought you already had one.

a first psychopath claims aliens made him kill
we typically do not assign blame to wells, spielberg or scifi in general.
The notion that one's personal motivation is not exactly an excuse, escapes you, doesn't it?

a second psychopath claims god made him kill
now we are treated to the sight of rabid trolls fanatically blaming scripture
Oh? You mean recognising that some people out there find the motivation to kill is "fanatically blaming scripture"?

and? then what? we let him walk with an insanity plea? that is an exemplary example of "*religiously* motivated violence"?

what this thread should show is that there are no easy associations and especially any that involve psychopaths. one would think you would be cognizant of that fact after "pages and pages"
You are dim, aren't you fanboy?

To you, looking at what personally motivated a psychopath is a bad thing, because if it points to that psychopath's religious beliefs, then it cannot be true for that psychopath, because heaven forbid a religion is insulted because some psychopath out there found motivation in his/her religious beliefs. Because to say that religion motivated that one person to violence in their twisted interpretation of it cannot apply. You will scrape your backside along the ground looking at every single excuse known to mankind, but if that psychopath is personally motivated by their religious beliefs? That doesn't compute for you, does it? No one here is blaming scripture. What has been said, repeatedly, is that there are some people who find motivation in their interpretation of their religious beliefs to commit crimes. It is not an excuse or a valid excuse. But it does not mean it does not happen. Do you understand now?


You entered it towards the end, thinking that people were blaming religion for violence. NO ONE has blamed religion for violence. You not only misrepresented what has been said in this thread, yes, over and over again, you do not seem to understand this thread at all. And you also burned all your bridges with me in the process. So for you, this has been a good 24 hours.

yeah
comprehension was a problem but no matter, the book inspires violence
And to some, it might. Is it wrong to acknowledge that motivation? Well according to you, it is.
 
So you're saying the prolongation of life only has meaning when investigating God.
Alternatives do have meaning but they are quite literally dead end careers

IOW it would probably be more accurate to describe it as insignificant (much like dreams have meaning, but due to their purely cerebral nature, they are by and large insignificant)
 
Alternatives do have meaning but they are quite literally dead end careers

IOW it would probably be more accurate to describe it as insignificant (much like dreams have meaning, but due to their purely cerebral nature, they are by and large insignificant)

Wow...
 
Alternatives do have meaning but they are quite literally dead end careers

IOW it would probably be more accurate to describe it as insignificant (much like dreams have meaning, but due to their purely cerebral nature, they are by and large insignificant)

Very well. But, back to the original OP: it is abundantly clear that there is indeed such a thing as religiously-motivated violence. The evidence provided by all parties on the yea side, and their hypothetical constructs, demonstrate this in an overwhelming manner. There is simply no 'wiggle room' on this one. We've asked in what possible way such violence would not be religiously motivated, and uniformly the responses have failed.

What it comes down to, as it has before, is that your definition of what you consider to be religious does not encompass religious violence. However, if we - or the perpetrators of such violence - are in no position to make such a conclusion, then neither are you in a position to say it is not religious, and so we end up in a regression to nothingness: nothing can have any acceptable motivation, and humanity - again - bounces around behaviour like a molecule in Brownian motion, but without any recognizable electrophoretic influence. Neither you nor Wynn nor Jan has any real response to this standard. Unless you have something new to offer?
 
lightgigantic:

do you think determining such motivation then makes science "dangerous" or warrants science to come under the purview of cautious handling or whatever?

Science can certainly be dangerous when used in the wrong way. Religion is no different.

It was a an analogous to the list of psychopaths you listed as "religious"

How does being a psychopath mean that you can't be religious?

if you provide links we can get into the details.

I fear that would be another waste of my time on you, so I decline. Try a google search for "witches africa" if you're interested. You will find many resources.

However present day witch hunting is often criticized as being a ploy to persecute an individual while bypassing the standard judicial system (Iran comes to mind)

And so...?

Because it was framed by [the Church] that witches were set out to over throw their management

Please explain for me how some peasant women and children in a small village in the south of France, to take a typical example, posed a threat to the management of the Catholic church in the middle ages.

in much the same manner - namely the pursuit of political ends

What political end was achieved by killing women and children in Salem?


Jan Ardena:

Does religion come from the Bible? Or does it come from the person? If it comes from the Bible, please explain it, as it is, within the Bible?

There are many religions. Christianity, which takes the bible as its text, is only one of many. I'm surprised you don't know this.

Christian teachings certainly come from the bible. In fact, most major branches of Christianity centre their worship around the bible and and its guidance. I'm surprised you're unaware of that, too.

Now explain to me why it isn't possible that the man kills his neighbour because he simply enjoys killing, or he hates homosexuals, or, he read the Bible and thought...ah!

Anything is possible. But if a man kills his homosexual neighbour and confesses that he did it because he read in the Bible that homosexuality if an abomination against his god, then I'm inclined to believe that that's why he did it. Why aren't you?

Even if the man was religious, and he killed his neighbour because he reads the Bible, how do you know his action was motivated by religion?

Er... because he said so?

Why don't we see violence in the name of religion among the everyday people, if there is such a thing as ''religiously motivated violence''?

We do. Whole societies and groups condone religiously-motivated violence. Take the beheadings in Afganistan under the Taliban for example.
 
yeah
god's word through a dog
still tho it is good that our legal system does not give much credence to this sort of bogus insanity pleas...


Don't blame dogs they have far better qualities than humans will ever have...seriously most humans that is. :)
 
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religions claim they know the one and only correct path in life. something worth fighting(violence) for.

secularism however puts the "best way of life" at the end of the "human development and collaboration" tunnel, where you can't know for real if you're right or the other guy is, so it's not worth a fight, rather it's better to work together to discover it, to create it.
but, the way secularism or atheism unbinds "the best way of life" from a fixed reference point, it becomes prone to giving up on an objective definition and succumbing to a personal subjective one. one which's reason for violence is "why not?".
 
You entered it towards the end, thinking that people were blaming religion for violence. NO ONE has blamed religion for violence. You not only misrepresented what has been said in this thread, yes, over and over again, you do not seem to understand this thread at all..


here is geoff....

Very well. But, back to the original OP: it is abundantly clear that there is indeed such a thing as religiously-motivated violence.

I've a better one: a man kills his homosexual neighbour because he claims it's an offense before God. A simple perusal of the Bible finds a few hits in Leviticus that specify that homosexuals should be put to death. Is such a man religious or not religious? Is that religiously-motivated violence?


here is me...

The Pennsylvania parents who turned to prayer instead of medicine as their son died of bacteria pneumonia were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment Friday. Herbert and Catherine Schaible could face five to 10 years in prison for the manslaughter charge and 3-1/2 to seven years for endangering the welfare of a child in the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son.

The couple, who have six other children, must await until Feb. 2 to be sentenced by Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin. Bail was set at $150,000 pending that hearing, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. During the trial, defense attorneys argued that faith played no part in the parents' decision to forgo medical care for their son, Kent Schaible. They said the couple thought their son was suffering from a severe cold and was not very sick.

According to the Inquirer, the prosecution argued that Kent's death could have been prevented if the couple had sought medical help instead of relying on their beliefs in faith healing. A statement made by Herbert Schaible to homicide detectives was read during the trial, in which he said, "We tried to fight the devil, but in the end the devil won."

Herbert, 42, teaches at a school run by the couple's church, First Century Gospel Church, and Catherine, 41, is a stay-at-home mother. The church states on its website that it does not believe God permits sickness or diseases but instead that anything bad is caused by sin and the devil.​

here is spider...

Child sacrificed, liver offered to gods: Indian police

RAIPUR, India — A seven-year-old Indian girl was murdered in a tribal sacrifice and her liver offered to the gods to improve crop growth, police in the central state of Chhattisgarh said on Sunday.

The body of Lalita Tati was found in October one week after her family reported her missing.

"A seven-year-old girl was sacrificed by two persons superstitiously believing that the act would give a better harvest," Narayan Das, the police chief of Bijapur district, told AFP by telephone.

The two men was arrested on Wednesday on suspicion of killing the girl and offering her liver to the gods in a grisly tribal ceremony. Police said the men had confessed to the crime.

The girl was murdered in a jungle district of Chhattisgarh that is a stronghold of rebel Maoists who have tapped into disaffection among local tribal groups.

Human sacrifices occasionally make headlines in deeply religious and superstitious India, and usually occur in poor areas where some people revere practitioners of black magic.

Two suspected child sacrifices were reported in Chhattisgarh in 2010, while in the same year the decapitated body of a factory worker was found in a temple in the eastern state of West Bengal.

The victims are often ritually killed by witchdoctors to appease gods, spirits or deities.​


and you.....
I would also say that the vapid hatred and obsession of other religions, to the point where one becomes obsessed about their opening a place of worship, say a Mosque, and the violent messages that comes from those protests is also religiously motivated. Wouldn't you agree GeoffP?

He told police on the night of August 22, 2003 that he had been holding a series of special prayer services, described by some as "exorcisms", during the previous three weeks to remove "evil spirits" of autism from the boy. Hemphill described how he would sit or lay on "Junior's" chest for up to two hours at a time, whispering into his ear for the "demons" to leave his body.

Three women -- including the child's mother, Patricia Cooper -- described to police how they sat on the boy's arms and legs while Hemphill sat on his chest. One woman said she pushed down on Junior's diaphragm several times during the service.

At some point during the service, he stopped struggling and breathing.

An autopsy later determined that Cottrell suffocated.

"All he could do was struggle and you interpreted that as demonic," Judge DiMotto told Hemphill. "It was your unreasonable and reckless conduct that caused this child to die."

"The community cannot risk another child being hurt, much less being killed, in a religious ritual," she said.


and james....

Here are just a few particular examples from a particular batch of people - serial killers.

David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), murdered more than 10 women: "I was searching the bible and soul searching and I decided God wanted me to do that."

The Yorkshire Ripper murdered 11 girls. He "was on a divine mission and felt he had been chosen to hear the word of GOD" (Flint Journal).

Sampson Kanderayi, a mass murderer called The Ax Killer, killed more than 30 people. The newspaper reported "he did it to appease evil spirits." He was a Christian.

Watts (the Sunday Morning Slasher) killed 11 women. He reportedly did it "to eliminate evil spirits".

---

Has anybody mentioned Exodus 22:18 yet, and what it inspired and continues to inspire in some places? "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Perhaps lightgigantic ought to learn something about the persecution of witches and the Inquisition.

so
what the fuck?
have you lost your goddamn mind?

No one here is blaming scripture.


if the shoe fits, why the hell not?
 
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so
what the fuck?
have you lost your goddamn mind?
You are the one who entered this thread and came after me like a yapping chihuahua. Accused me of abusing my mod powers, when I had done no such thing, called me a variety of names, threatened to beat me with the proverbial stick, attempted to browbeat me into god knows what, accused me of looking up your IP address, when I had done no such thing, and a variety of other things. Then appeared to flip flop around on what is being debated here.

I would suggest, Gustav, that you check if you have "lost your goddamn mind".

As for what you quoted, I have Geoff on ignore, so I don't know what he says for the most part unless it is quoted.

But having read what what you posted, here is something you need to take into consideration:

GeoffP said:
Is that religiously-motivated violence?
In other words, is the man killing the next door neighbour motivated by his religious beliefs?


In all of the other examples you cited, all were very specific and individual.
In other words, they applied to specific individuals. Not to the whole religion. Really, it's not that hard.
 
Then appeared to flip flop around on what is being debated here.


i took issue with certain examples that were offered up, not all
why is a nuanced take so hard for you to comprehend?
is it because you have shit for brains?

You are the one who entered this thread and came after me like a yapping chihuahua.


i was really low key about it at first
Now I am going to warn you to stop trolling.


unofficially of course :)

yet you persisted in your warnings and posturing......

So please, do not tell me how to do my job....

you big whelp you

what the fuck is wrong with your sorry ass anyway?
first a troll with geoff and now with me?
i mean, that is what really stands out here in this thread
you in all your maddened glory
 
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