Show that there is *religiously* motivated violence

[wynn]

In other cases, doesn't the fear of God cause people to do violence to try to prove their faith so they will be worthy of eternal life?

If, for some very awkward reason, they believe that this life is all there is, or that this life is the only one for action, and that they "have to get it right in this one lifetime or burn in hell forever," then yes.

Wynn, is exploiting the fear of God in people a type of mental abuse--religiously motivated violence to the mind?

I agree that it is violence, but I do not think it is religiously motivated. Rather, it is motivated by irreligion.

 

[Bells]

It makes more sense for someone like you, perhaps.

What was it that you said about exorcisms?

Ah yes..

An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again).

That is your belief my dear. Not mine.

Because it really really helps us get through the day to believe that the world is, ultimately, a nasty, chaotic, meaningless place.

Well you live in your own world where you believe a man can be motivated to rape a woman if she wears a short skirt.. Because a mini skirt is a bigger motivator than one's religious beliefs.

Really..

The twisted ways you get through your days is no concern to me unless you attempt to foist your twisted beliefs upon me, as you have been doing in this forum.

If your idea of not being selfish and not being self-serving, is essentially about sacrificing one's health, money and other resources, and even one's life for the desires of others, then I think you have a very sadomasochistic idea of human goodness.

What do you think cancer treatment does Wynn? It is self sacrifice.

My children are my motivation to get up in the morning. Does that make me a sadomasochist? Proud to be one if that is the case. Life is about sacrifice Wynn. But you wouldn't understand that, would you? Because according to you, there is no such thing as motivation, is there?

Then again, I am an atheist, so that would mean I am not selfish and self-serving. I guess you, LG and Jan cornered that market all to yourselves.

Yeah. Imagine advancing to a stage where one doesn't endanger others with one's greed, anger and delusion anymore, and where one can actually help others in relevant ways (as opposed to just help them in trying to postpone the inevitable).
Yeah, such a stage of advancement truly is reprehensible!

You haven't reached that level yet.

Believe me, after reading your posts on this forum, you are so far from that ideal, you can't even see the glimmer on the horizon.

 

[Bells]

I agree that it is violence, but I do not think it is religiously motivated. Rather, it is motivated by irreligion.

AHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!

Oh I am quoting this because this is precious..

 

[wynn]

So it doesn't matter then, life begins when you die.

No.

You'd stake your life on that?

I almost drowned once. This experience convinced me that the worst thing about dying is the horrible mental state that one may be in at the time of death. I breathed in water, and I was thinking - "Is life worth living? What is the meaning of life?"
Afterwards, it wasn't the schorched lungs or the exhaustion of almost having drowned that were so horrible - it was that I had perfectly sensible questions that I had no good answers to.
Once having the experience of water literally filling my lungs, answers like "life is what you make of it," or "eat, drink and make merry" or "the purpose of life is to pass on my genes" just aren't satisfactory enough.

I can't provide objective proof that reincarnation exists; however, I try to do much to prepare myself for death - to not again come into that horrible mental state that I was in when I was drowning, but instead to face the death of my body with more calm and clarity.

 

[wynn]

Well you live in your own world where you believe a man can be motivated to rape a woman if she wears a short skirt..

That is what you believe. It is you who believes that anyone can be motivated by anything to do anything.

The twisted ways you get through your days is no concern to me unless you attempt to foist your twisted beliefs upon me, as you have been doing in this forum.

Oh? Have I missed that you are tied to a chair, with armed guards around you threatening to shoot you should you move from the spot, and you have to listen to me?

What do you think cancer treatment does Wynn? It is self sacrifice.

My children are my motivation to get up in the morning. Does that make me a sadomasochist? Proud to be one if that is the case. Life is about sacrifice Wynn. But you wouldn't understand that, would you? Because according to you, there is no such thing as motivation, is there?

It depends on what one sacrifices one's resources on.
Sacrificing one's resources for the sake of things that are subject to aging, illness and death, is hardly a good investment.

You haven't reached that level yet.

Believe me, after reading your posts on this forum, you are so far from that ideal, you can't even see the glimmer on the horizon.

You, of course, have reached that level, and long ago.
You are the kindest, nicest, best person in the world! Everyone around you becomes enlightened upon the faintest contact with you!

 

[wynn]

Wow... OK... How would one test this hypothesis?

See LG's post.

 

[elte]

I agree that it is violence, but I do not think it is religiously motivated. Rather, it is motivated by irreligion.

My on-board WordWeb dictionary says irreligion is "The quality of not being devout." Aren't sacrificers being devout when offering up their victims?

How can one really tell religion from the irreligion? Is there mobility between the categories?

 

[Bells]

That is what you believe. It is you who believes that anyone can be motivated by anything to do anything.

No, believe me, you were the one who claimed that women who dress provocatively had a higher chance of being raped because that mini skirt motivated their rapist. My response to you is that it isn't an excuse, while you attempted to argue that it was.

Can you tell the difference?

But yet, here you are saying that while a man can be motivated to rape by a short skirt, a person cannot be motivated by their religious beliefs to do anything.

Oh? Have I missed that you are tied to a chair, with armed guards around you threatening to shoot you should you move from the spot, and you have to listen to me?

Come come Wynn, you missed the hysterical ranting of Gustav about 'figure of speech'?

It depends on what one sacrifices one's resources on.
Sacrificing one's resources on things that are subject to aging, illness and death is hardly a good investment.

Which is probably why you believe as you do about beating someone to death in exorcisms...

"An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again)".​

What's the point of seeking medical advice or help when one's local priest can just save your soul and beat you to death!

That's the spirit!

You, of course, have reached that level, and long ago.
You are the kindest, nicest, best person in the world! Everyone around you becomes enlightened uppon the faintest contact with you!

Don't be ridiculous!

As an atheist, I haven't reached the Christ level of religion, nor will I ever.

 

[gmilam]

I almost drowned once.

I did too. I was about 6 at the time. Many of us have faced death and lived to recall the experience.

See LG's post.

I have LG on ignore, but I read his response... doesn't answer the question.

 

[wynn]

No, believe me, you were the one who claimed that women who dress provocatively had a higher chance of being raped

I have possibly said something like that, and in context.

But I have never said:

because that mini skirt motivated their rapist.

- This is what you project.

My response to you is that it isn't an excuse, while you attempted to argue that it was.

No, I didn't, and you never understood my stance, because you insist on projecting your own stance into mine.


However, it appears that you believe that "motivation" essentially boils down to "excuse."
Or at least you appear to believe that some people think of "motivation" as "excuse."
"I couldn't help myself, I was motivated by it" - this is what you believe some people mean by "motivation"?

But yet, here you are saying that while a man can be motivated to rape by a short skirt,

I never said that.

Which is probably why you believe as you do about beating someone to death in exorcisms...

I wouldn't want to have your mind ...

"An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again)".​

And what do you think is wrong with that?

Where did I say anything about beating anyone to death?

You quoted me - I said -

An exorcism as such may be for religious reasons. An exorcism is intended to drive out the demons and to make the person functional (again).

What's the point of seeking medical advice or help when one's local priest can just save your soul and beat you to death!

That's the spirit!

I do not think many people share that spirit with you.

Don't be ridiculous!

As an atheist, I haven't reached the Christ level of religion, nor will I ever.

Oh, you probably do believe you are a good, kind person, and that others can profit from you by simply being in the same room with you.

 

[GeoffP]

If it doesn't warrant any clue beyond its inevitable demise (particularly when it has the capacity to investigate otherwise), then yes.

'Clue'? 'Investigate'? What the hell are you talking about?

And we all have an inevitable demise coming. So why bother?

 

[wynn]

I did too. I was about 6 at the time. Many of us have faced death and lived to recall the experience.

I was in my mid teens. So I probably had some more thoughts and experience on the matter of the meaning of life than a 6-year old.

I have LG on ignore, but I read his response... doesn't answer the question.

Common sense readily tells us that we stake our lives on what we are prospectively interested in for the future.

People go to school to improve their job opportunities, athletes train so they have better chances to win at events, etc.

We stake our lives on things that are not a reality for us yet, but we treat them as true and possible.
We do that all the time.
We believe there is a connection between what we do now, and what will be later; moreover, we believe that there is a causal connection between the two, and that what we do now causes what will be later.

Some people believe that the state of mind that the person is in at the time of death importantly impacts how they will be reborn.
E.g. if at the time of death, one thinks of angry dogs, one may get reborn as an angry dog; if one thinks of saintly persons, one may get reborn as a saintly person.

Wow... OK... How would one test this hypothesis?

You don't have to - it's not like anyone is forcing you.
Other than that, the question is what your intention is behind wanting to test it.

Do you wonder about reincarnation as such, or about the specifics of it?

 

[wynn]

My on-board WordWeb dictionary says irreligion is "The quality of not being devout." Aren't sacrificers being devout when offering up their victims?

They should be devout (and they should offer sacrifices or gifts, not victims).

How can one really tell religion from the irreligion? Is there mobility between the categories?

I don't think this is actually so hard to know - I think everyone can sense it intuitively quite well.


However, the usual problem is in how to convince others of one's stance, and how to maintain one's stance in face of opposition.
This is where many people become atheistic.

 

[wynn]

And we all have an inevitable demise coming. So why bother?

If this is what you believe, then for you, there can also be no right and no wrong, no goodness and no violence. And then your whole input in this thread becomes a charade, an all-for-naught.

 

[GeoffP]

If this is what you believe, then for you, there can also be no right and no wrong, no goodness and no violence.

Sorry, but how does that follow, exactly? And why?

And then your whole input in this thread becomes a charade, an all-for-naught.

Sorry: how is that again? How does the unavoidability of death magically transform my comments into an all-for-naught?

 

[Jan Ardena]

GeoffP,

Oh, is this what you've been doing?

What? No witty come back?

Enough with the childish games, Jan. God's happy when you mangle his ministry, right?

God has His own ministry?

The relevancy astounds me. I am unable to formulate a response. If I were a robot, I would be muttering "Beep beep - cannot - looo-gic - cannot - you have beaten me, Kirk!"

Ok, I'm backing away real slow.

It's "your" and "logical" and "psychotic". And my tune doesn't change on such 'reasoned' killers, Jan.

???

Now, in parallel: may we then conclude that your tu quoque does indeed imply that you understand that religiously-motivated violence occurs? I have made my admissions: politically-motivated violence does indeed occur.

If you think that is so, then show how ''religion'' motivates violence.

Consider this: Person A is not religious in the slightest, but due to his murdering his next door neighbour, and getting caught red-handed, his lawyer
advises him to claim God told him to do it, in a bid to get a lighter sentence. He makes the claim and gets a lighter sentence.

Now then. Here's the $64 trillion dollar question.
Is Person A religious, or is he NOT religious?


good luck
jan.

 

[gmilam]

I was in my mid teens. So I probably had some more thoughts and experience on the matter of the meaning of life than a 6-year old.

Of course, your experience was deeper than mine.

I was also standing next to my boss when a co-worker came up and shot him, and then blew his own brains out. I was in my late twenties at the time... This triggered some soul searching too.

Do you wonder about reincarnation as such, or about the specifics of it?

I have given it a thought or two in my life. (I'm currently 53 years old) I see no evidence to support the hypothesis.

 

[spidergoat]

Wow, the amount of equivocation in this thread in defense of religion is astounding. Obviously, given the standard definition of religion as it is practiced in society now and in the past, there were violent practices specific to religions, and many examples were given. The response is that most religion isn't true religion, since true religion transcends ideology, sacred texts, dogma, politics, insanity, greed, and delusion. Basically, everything bad can't be religion because the present advocates of religion hold a faith position that religion is a personal relationship with God and can only be good, since God is good. But the reality of religion is that it is practiced in many different ways, and one of the ways is to have faith in the sacred texts, and in the accepted interpretations of those texts from religious authorities. This is religion too.

 

[Gustav]

It's certainly a fact to consider, before we board the "If they brought him to the doctor, he would survive" train.

do not even the most iron clad of guarantees contain the act of nature/god clause?
do you board the "if i sleep tonight, i will wake up tomorrow" train?

Who knows. I can't read minds.

in light of that failing, the next best thing is to acquaint oneself with what has been alleged to be said. read the article

One thing is on principle true: religious people do not rely on worldly professionals to provide them with happiness or meaning; religious people do not see doctors as ultimate authorities on life, death and health.
Given this, they may at some point refrain from seeking the help of worldly professionals.

a rather vapid observation that is not entirely true
it would be "some religious people"
this "some" then translates to a really small minority of religious folk

 

[GeoffP]

GeoffP,

What? No witty come back?

Didn't see it? Wit sometimes appears magical to those who have none.

God has His own ministry?

Ah. Then I trust you will be no agent of it.

Ok, I'm backing away real slow.

Hmm - vague allusion to insanity, careful avoidance of the issues.

Yes, this would be par for the thread.

???

...soo...you don't even understand my response to your own allusion.

New low.

If you think that is so, then show how ''religion'' motivates violence.

Already did. A multitude of times. Thanks for playing.

Consider this: Person A is not religious in the slightest, but due to his murdering his next door neighbour, and getting caught red-handed, his lawyer
advises him to claim God told him to do it, in a bid to get a lighter sentence. He makes the claim and gets a lighter sentence.

Now then. Here's the $64 trillion dollar question.
Is Person A religious, or is he NOT religious?

I've a better one: a man kills his homosexual neighbour because he claims it's an offense before God. A simple perusal of the Bible finds a few hits in Leviticus that specify that homosexuals should be put to death. Is such a man religious or not religious? Is that religiously-motivated violence?

Here's another: a man gives $200 to a local outreach ministry to buy blankets for the poor, citing Jesus' commandment to help the poor. A simple perusal of the Bible finds, indeed, such an order. Is such a man religious or not religious? Is that religiously-motivated charity?

good luck
jan.

Oh, shucks: none was needed.