Show that there is *religiously* motivated violence

[GeoffP]

GeoffP,

Appeal to logical fallacy (is there such a fallacy?) because you can't accept when you're good and beaten.

Oh, is this what you've been doing?

Enough with the childish games, Jan. God's happy when you mangle his ministry, right?

Claws? What makes you think devils have clawed fingers?
Or is this more made up stuff?

The relevancy astounds me. I am unable to formulate a response. If I were a robot, I would be muttering "Beep beep - cannot - looo-gic - cannot - you have beaten me, Kirk!"

When we apply you're logic to the atheists, Stalin, Pot, and other logica, rational, and reasoned, psycotic killers, your tune changes.


jan.

It's "your" and "logical" and "psychotic". And my tune doesn't change on such 'reasoned' killers, Jan. Now, in parallel: may we then conclude that your tu quoque does indeed imply that you understand that religiously-motivated violence occurs? I have made my admissions: politically-motivated violence does indeed occur.

You know, this would be like the fourth or fifth time I've won this one. Can we stop now?

 

[wynn]

It's true, modern medicine may not have saved the child... So it was probably best to do nothing except burn some incense, recite some poetic rhymes and splash a little water on them.

Not everyone believes that the body is the alpha and omega of human existence.

 

[GeoffP]

Not everyone believes that the body is the alpha and omega of human existence.

Wow. And so saving that body becomes inconsequential. Wow.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Bells,

Which has been shown on numerous occasions in this thread.

No you haven't.....

A preacher/priest/pastor or other religious leader is apparently not religious in your opinion? How about nuns and priests? Are they religious?

Someone is religious IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS, not because they say they're religious. How many times do you need to hear that?

If you think I'm wrong, then SHOW where I am wrong, with sufficient explanation.

So when a priest and nuns crucify a nun because they believe her to be possessed, they are not motivated by their religion or religious beliefs?

Show me the link. Let's look into it, rather than just ass-ume.
I take it they are members of the Catholic Church?
What does the institute say on such matters?
Did they act in accordance with the rules of the institute?
Is the workings of the institute in accordance with Christ?

If they are taking things into their own hands, IOW, create their own
rules and regs, then we need clarification from wynn as to what she means by ''religion''.

A Romanian nun has died after being bound to a cross, gagged and left alone for three days in a cold room in a convent, Romanian police have said.

Members of the convent in north-east Romania claim Maricica Irina Cornici was possessed and that the crucifixion had been part of an exorcism ritual.

Cornici was found dead on the cross on Wednesday after fellow nuns called an ambulance, according to police.

A priest and four nuns were charged with imprisonment leading to death.

______________________________

Father Daniel who is accused of orchestrating the crime is said to be unrepentant.

"God has performed a miracle for her, finally Irina is delivered from evil," AFP quoted the priest as saying.

"I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this. Exorcism is a common practice in the heart of the Romanian Orthodox church and my methods are not at all unknown to other priests," Father Daniel added.

[Source]
​

This is not religious to you?

No. Sounds like something you'd find in the series ''Dexter''.
It sounds like he's found the perfect cover to perform his work. Much
like peodofiles who find work in childrens homes, schools, churches, or anywhere they have abundant prey.

We know the bible goes into quite a bit of detail about possession and exorcism. So that to me is religious. Unless of course you are going to claim that the religious texts are all based on lies?

The religiousness is from our perspective, not the bibles. In the NT, we had an idea of what Christ thought about the 'religion'' of the day.

It is clear that you do not have a good perspective of ''religion'', or its relationship to the scripture.

Oh, there are different levels of religion?

My my..

How does one progress through these religion levels exactly?

''Religion'', is a dicipline one practices to develop good, human, awareness, and like all diciplines, it takes time and practice to develop.

And here I thought Christ's teachings to be merciful and good to others is used as a motivator to encourage Christians to be good. I guess Jesus lied?

You need to be these things in order to understand Christ's teachings, and even then, one can fall down.

It seems your intense dislike of religion has distorted your view of religion beyond recognition. It is little wonder you are atheist.

Which means that Jesus' teachings only serve to, well, serve the selfish. Jesus teaching's about being kind and merciful... the bastard was only currying his place in heaven!

Sound personal.

Well it certainly didn't come from God or Jesus' teachings? Did it? He didn't die on the cross for your sin's. He died for his own selfish and self serving needs!

To me, his death proved that we are NOT this body, but something far more subtle, which is unaffected by material nature. The same thing I find in every scripture.

I''m guessing you probably missed that.

Well there is obviously no such thing as motivation. One cannot state they follow Jesus's teaching's in the bible, because well, he's obviously a self serving bastard.

The motivation has to come from us, not the teacher.
If a killer kills young women because he found his young wife in bed with the milkman, are his actions due to his wife, or himself?

And apparently, according to you, there are levels of religion, some of which can only be obtained by a select few, such as yourself,

Woman!
You haven't listened to a word I've said, have you?

Nor do I accept your deluded views of religion, where apparently there are different levels of religion and where motivation does not exist at all.

Okay, here's my point. Where have I given a personal view of religion?
And, of course there are different levels of religion. Duh!

So I guess that makes us even.

No. You've yet to show ''religiously motivated violence'', or , IOW, violence caused because of religion. To do that you must define what religion is, otherwise you're always going to get knocked down.

It's not as easy as you think.

Well he obviously hadn't levelled to the secret religion level, like you have. So he can only comment about your selfish and self-serving beliefs instead of being just like you.

Great! So now you're going to typecast me with this nonsense. That's just the kind of shite Hitchens used to do to get his audience on side.
Comedy only get's you so far!

jan.

 

[GeoffP]

Religion:Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

And thus, violence with the motivation to impose such a belief system or punish others for not adhering to such a belief system is "religiously-motivated violence".

That wasn't as tough as I thought it would be. That's - what? six times now?

 

[wynn]

Wow. And so saving that body becomes inconsequential. Wow.

Not at all.
What is important is to provide some measure of bodily wellbeing, and to ensure that at the time of death, the person is in an auspicious state of mind.

 

[wynn]

And thus, violence with the motivation to impose such a belief system or punish others for not adhering to such a belief system is "religiously-motivated violence".

That wasn't as tough as I thought it would be. That's - what? six times now?

Putting criminals to prisons, firing people because they don't keep up with the office politics, bullying students because they don't wear fashionable clothes etc.
are examples of culturally motivated violence.

 

[GeoffP]

Not at all.
What is important is to provide some measure of bodily wellbeing, and to ensure that at the time of death, the person is in an auspicious state of mind.

To what end is their state of mind?

Putting criminals to prisons, firing people because they don't keep up with the office politics, bullying students because they don't wear fashionable clothes etc.
are examples of culturally motivated violence.

Very good. And, reciprocally, religious suppression, exorcism, jihad and the like are religiously-motivated violence.

I think we have concluded this argument. Perhaps you meant in the OP that other forms of violence were greater or more widespread?

 

[parmalee]

This entire thread reminds me of the simple fact that the Americans are attempting to remake Martyrs. Even more pertinent perhaps, not just any Americans, but the producers of Twilight, for fuck's sake.

 

[lightgigantic]

lightgigantic:



What did he say motivated him? If he said he was motivated by science, then yes, I think his actions were motivated by science.

do you think determining such motivation then makes science "dangerous" or warrants science to come under the purview of cautious handling or whatever?

Then again, this guy sounds like he had some mental issues. Are you trying to draw an analogy by saying that all religious people who commit acts of violence in the name of their religion have mental issues?

It was a an analogous to the list of psychopaths you listed as "religious"

It is a historical fact that people did persecute witches, though. In fact, it is still happening right now in some parts of the world.

if you provide links we can get into the details.

However present day witch hunting is often criticized as being a ploy to persecute an individual while bypassing the standard judicial system (Iran comes to mind)

In any case, I take it that you concede that those at the "cutting edge" in 1400 BC were motivated to kill witches by religion.

No more than the acquisition of slaves was motivated by religion

Why was the Church instrumental in the persecution of witches?

Because it was framed by them that witches were set out to over throw their management

And how does the Spanish Inquisition account for other persecutions, such as the current ones and the Salem witch trials?

in much the same manner - namely the pursuit of political ends

 

[wynn]

Indeed. Why seek help from a 'worldly' professional for an autistic child when you can get your pastor to beat him to death during an exorcism to rid him of the evil autistic spirits? Makes more sense.

It makes more sense for someone like you, perhaps.

Nope. But his motivation is real enough for him to lead him to commit the crime in the first place.

Get it?

So?

I could say the same for denying the blatantly obvious because one has a romantic and selfish and self-serving ideal about what it means to be religious.


It is better to believe that all is pretty and happy and glorious in the eyes of the Lord.. We'll forget about murdering people in the name of one's God, we'll forget that parents send their children to priests to be beaten to death because the priest tells them their children are possessed, we'll forget all of that. Instead, we'll live in happy Wynn land where being delusional is expected.

We'll just forget reality and instead be motivated by your religious desire to believe that there is no chaos around us.

Because it really really helps us get through the day to believe that the world is, ultimately, a nasty, chaotic, meaningless place.

According to you Wynn, there can be no religious motivation. Which would mean that all theists are selfish and self serving because they only do good deeds to get to that higher life "beyond ordinary survival".

If your idea of not being selfish and not being self-serving, is essentially about sacrificing one's health, money and other resources, and even one's life for the desires of others, then I think you have a very sadomasochistic idea of human goodness.

Which would mean that all theists are selfish and self serving because they only do good deeds to get to that higher life "beyond ordinary survival".

Yeah. Imagine advancing to a stage where one doesn't endanger others with one's greed, anger and delusion anymore, and where one can actually help others in relevant ways (as opposed to just help them in trying to postpone the inevitable).
Yeah, such a stage of advancement truly is reprehensible!

 

[lightgigantic]

Wow. And so saving that body becomes inconsequential. Wow.

actually its precisely because the body never has the possibility of being saved that its not regarded as the alpha and omega by all ....

 

[wynn]

To what end is their state of mind?

Some people believe that the state of mind that the person is in at the time of death importantly impacts how they will be reborn.
E.g. if at the time of death, one thinks of angry dogs, one may get reborn as an angry dog; if one thinks of saintly persons, one may get reborn as a saintly person.

Very good. And, reciprocally, religious suppression, exorcism, jihad and the like are religiously-motivated violence.

Only if you believe that religion is the same kind of phenomenon as politics.

 

[elte]

Wynn, is exploiting the fear of God in people a type of mental abuse--religiously motivated violence to the mind?

In other cases, doesn't the fear of God cause people to do violence to try to prove their faith so they will be worthy of eternal life?

 

[gmilam]

Not everyone believes that the body is the alpha and omega of human existence.

So it doesn't matter then, life begins when you die. :bugeye:

You'd stake your life on that?

 

[Bells]

No you haven't.....

Oh, I believe I and others have.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Someone is religious IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS, not because they say they're religious. How many times do you need to hear that?

If you think I'm wrong, then SHOW where I am wrong, with sufficient explanation.

So who determines if someone is religious? You?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were God?

Is there a certain "level" of "religious" that one must attain to be "religious"?

Show me the link. Let's look into it, rather than just ass-ume.

Speaking of "ass"...

The link was provided. I'd suggest you click on it and read it.

I take it they are members of the Catholic Church?

I guess the part where it says Catholic nuns and priest wasn't clear enough?

What does the institute say on such matters?

Which institution? The Catholic Church or the Bible?

I mean what level of religion should we be talking about here?

So what does the Church say on exorcisms?

Overwhelmed with requests for exorcists, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops are holding a special training workshop in Baltimore this weekend to teach clerics the esoteric rite, the Catholic News Service reported.

The church has signed up 56 bishops and 66 priests for the two-day workshop that began on Friday, seeking to boost the small group of just five or six American exorcists that the church currently has on its books.

"There's this small group of priests who say they get requests from all over the continental U.S.," Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Springfield, Illinois, was quoted as saying.

"Actually, each diocese should have its own" exorcist, he added.

__________________________________________

Catholic Church law stipulates that only properly trained priests can perform the rite -- and then only with the permission of their bishops.


[Source]
​

There be much evil spirits to be cast out!

Did they act in accordance with the rules of the institute?

Having never been possessed by an evil spirit, I would not know. I would of course have to defer to someone who had reached such a 'high level of religion', such as yourself to comment on demonic possession, since you know, you are so knowledgeable about such things since you reached such a high level of religion and all.. Tell me, is the level capped? Do you become a super religion when you reach God level?

Is the workings of the institute in accordance with Christ?

Are you asking me if Christ performed exorcisms? I believe the bible is quite definitive on that subject.

But hey, since there can be no religious motivation, why should it be in accordance with Christ? It's not as if he ever motivated anyone to anything, is it?

If they are taking things into their own hands, IOW, create their own
rules and regs, then we need clarification from wynn as to what she means by ''religion''.

Because Wynn determines the who's and what's of religion now?

No. Sounds like something you'd find in the series ''Dexter''.

Not familiar with it, sorry. I'm not into soapies.

It sounds like he's found the perfect cover to perform his work. Much
like peodofiles who find work in childrens homes, schools, churches, or anywhere they have abundant prey.

And you know this because?

Oh wait, is this your special knowledge because you reached a high level of religion?

The religiousness is from our perspective, not the bibles. In the NT, we had an idea of what Christ thought about the 'religion'' of the day.

It is clear that you do not have a good perspective of ''religion'', or its relationship to the scripture.

So you reached Christ level of religion?

''Religion'', is a dicipline one practices to develop good, human, awareness, and like all diciplines, it takes time and practice to develop.

Like kung fu!

Pray tell, how does one practice to reach high level of religion Jan?

Please, enlighten this dark soul...

You need to be these things in order to understand Christ's teachings, and even then, one can fall down.

It seems your intense dislike of religion has distorted your view of religion beyond recognition. It is little wonder you are atheist.

Well I haven't reached the secret cow level of relgion yet.

But about Christ's teachings... Seems irrelevant since you claim that religious motivation or motivation from religion does not exist.

Sound personal.

I always sound personal when I see theists at their selfish and self serving best.

To me, his death proved that we are NOT this body, but something far more subtle, which is unaffected by material nature. The same thing I find in every scripture.

I''m guessing you probably missed that.

As I said, I haven't reached the secret high level of religion like you have.

So you'll excuse me if I don't pander to your delusions.

The motivation has to come from us, not the teacher.
If a killer kills young women because he found his young wife in bed with the milkman, are his actions due to his wife, or himself?

So Christ taught you nothing..

And himself. Why do you ask? I mean I could blame the milk.. pesky cows probably spiked it, but as you say, one finds motivation in one's self and if one self is religious and that one finds motivation to commit an act of violence in one's religion within one's self, then obviously, that would be religious motivation. So thank you for clearing that up!

Much appreciated.

Woman!
You haven't listened to a word I've said, have you?

Sorry, I was trying to determine what hack you used to reach the high level of religion.

Okay, here's my point. Where have I given a personal view of religion?
And, of course there are different levels of religion. Duh!

I won't comment on the obvious contradiction there..

Because really, it would just be too easy.

No. You've yet to show ''religiously motivated violence'', or , IOW, violence caused because of religion. To do that you must define what religion is, otherwise you're always going to get knocked down.

It's not as easy as you think.

Well apparently religion is within one's self. So if one is motivated to commit an act of violence, it would be religious motivation regardless.

Thus far we've had you running around in circles yapping about levels of religion. It would be funny if it wasn't just so pathetic.

Great! So now you're going to typecast me with this nonsense. That's just the kind of shite Hitchens used to do to get his audience on side.
Comedy only get's you so far!

Nonsense?

You are the one who went on about different levels of religion in the first place.

And you are right about comedy only getting one so far because you stopped being funny about 2 posts ago.

 

[GeoffP]

actually its precisely because the body never has the possibility of being saved that its not regarded as the alpha and omega by all ....

And so its prolongation is merely trivial?

Some people believe that the state of mind that the person is in at the time of death importantly impacts how they will be reborn.
E.g. if at the time of death, one thinks of angry dogs, one may get reborn as an angry dog; if one thinks of saintly persons, one may get reborn as a saintly person.

I see.

Only if you believe that religion is the same kind of phenomenon as politics.

You were speaking of sources of motivation. You still don't understand your own argument.

 

[lightgigantic]

So it doesn't matter then, life begins when you die. :bugeye:

I guess the question then becomes "life as what?"

You'd stake your life on that?

Doesn't everyone stake their life on what they are prospectively interested in for the future?

For instance don't children go to school in an attempt to better accommodate their prospects when they have are an adult (ie when they have a different body along with a host of needs, interests and concerns - ie the mental baggage- totally alien to their current state)?

 

[gmilam]

Some people believe that the state of mind that the person is in at the time of death importantly impacts how they will be reborn.
E.g. if at the time of death, one thinks of angry dogs, one may get reborn as an angry dog; if one thinks of saintly persons, one may get reborn as a saintly person.

Wow... OK... How would one test this hypothesis?

 

[lightgigantic]

And so its prolongation is merely trivial?

If it doesn't warrant any clue beyond its inevitable demise (particularly when it has the capacity to investigate otherwise), then yes.