Senior-most-cleric says Islamic Sharia law allows preteen marriage

actually mohamed was ahead of his time... he set slaves free.... he married a divorced woman (to set an example) etc
Those actions are anything but "ahead of their times".

Many MANY, if not ALL, societies had systems in place whereby slaves were freed after meeting certain criteria. It's, if anything, a means to keep enslaved people as slaves - you know, give them the hope of regaining freedom and you know a couple (every so often) do. Reminds me of the same reasons people buy lottery tickets.

As for marrying divorced people, please, that one's oh, I don't - 7000 years older than than the birth of Mohammad. In short, it was common.
 
Name one democratically elected government supported in the Middle East and not overthrown by the west.

In fact, name one movement for self determination and civil rights supported in the Middle East and not violently suppressed by the west.
 
Iranian theocracy was overwhelmingly supported by the Iranian people. If that's not a mandate I don't know what is?

If you can point to a time in the ME when the common people held elections and elected representatives I'd like to see it because it only existed in Greece, Roman and the cities they founded for the citizens who lived therein.

If you read up on the millet system you'd find it was again the Sultan (King) on the one side and the head of the church (ex: Greek Orthodox Patriarch) on the other - EXACTLY as it has been in the ME for 7000+ years and still is to this very day.
 
Iranian theocracy was overwhelmingly supported by the Iranian people. If that's not a mandate I don't know what is?

If you can point to a time in the ME when the common people held elections and elected representatives I'd like to see it because it only existed in Greece, Roman and the cities they founded for the citizens who lived therein.

If you read up on the millet system you'd find it was again the Sultan (King) on the one side and the head of the church (ex: Greek Orthodox Patriarch) on the other - EXACTLY as it has been in the ME for 7000+ years and still is to this very day.

You're clearly clueless. So I won't bother. Happy bigoting.
 
I'm really looking forward to the day when we can relate DNA expression to behavior and can then Scientifically point to the exact reasons why people in the ME have the superstitious governments and kings that they elect and support.

Then we won't have to worry about conjecture anymore (or blaming the west for a system of rule that has been selected for in the ME for greater than seven millennium).
 
What's dirty about having sex with a younger person?

Nothing. If the younger person is an adult who is aware and understands. Emphasis on the "adult", because for some reason, it appears to be necessary in this discussion.

There is something decidedly dirty and wrong with an adult wanting to have sex with 10 or 12 year olds, regardless of sex. There is something dirty and wrong with feeling sexually attracted to little children. A marriage certificate and a blessing from one's religious leaders does not make it any less dirty or wrong.
 
Nothing. If the younger person is an adult who is aware and understands. Emphasis on the "adult", because for some reason, it appears to be necessary in this discussion.

There is something decidedly dirty and wrong with an adult wanting to have sex with 10 or 12 year olds, regardless of sex. There is something dirty and wrong with feeling sexually attracted to little children. A marriage certificate and a blessing from one's religious leaders does not make it any less dirty or wrong.

I was speaking objectively, not morally. Why is sex considered "dirty" as such?

e.g. bonobos mate with all members of the group, regardless of age and sex, its a form of social bonding and helps them to resolve conflicts without violence. Obviously since they mate with individuals of the same sex and those too young to breed its not with the intention of reproduction.
"The diversity of sexual behavior in a cross-cultural perspective is amazing to those who assume that their own society’s moral standards are somehow laws of nature. Yet it is a fact that almost every sort of sexual activity : : : has been considered normal and acceptable in some society at some time: : : . Man-boy relationships are no exception to this rule of diversity: : : . Although they are roundly condemned by many segments of Western society as inherently abusive and exploitive, there have been (and still are) many societies that do not share this viewpoint." (Bauserman, 1997, p. 120)

Ford and Beach (1951) described cross-cultural examples of child–adult sex from the Human Relation Area files at Yale University. Among the Siwans (Siwa Valley, North Africa), “All men and boys engage in anal intercourse. Males are singled out as peculiar if they did not do so. Prominent Siwan men lend their sons to each other for this purpose” (pp. 131–132). Among the Aranda aborigines (Central Australia), “Pederasty is a recognized custom: : : . Commonly a man, who is fully initiated but not yet married, takes a boy ten or twelve years old, who lives with him as his wife for several years, until the older man marries” (p. 132). Diamond (1990) reviewed child–adult sex in Hawaiian history and Polynesia. In the eighteenth century, Cook (1773) reported copulation in public in Hawaii between an adult male and a female estimated to be 11 or 12 “without the least sense of it being indecent or improper” (cited in Diamond, 1990). Sexual interactions between adult and child were seen as benefitting the child, rather than as gratifying the adult. The sexual desire by an adult for a nonadult, heterosexual or homosexual, was accepted (Pukui, Haertig, & Lee, 1972, cited in Diamond, 1990). Suggs (1966), studying Marquesan society, reported considerable childhood sexual behavior with adults (cited in Diamond, 1990). He reported many examples of heterosexual intercourse in public between adults and prepubertal children in Polynesia. The crews of visiting ships were typically involved and assisted by adult natives. Occasions were recorded of elders assisting youngsters in having sex with other elders. In many cultures of Oceania, prepubertal females were publicly sexually active with adults (Oliver, 1974). In Tahiti, in 1832, the missionary Orsmond observed that “in all Tahitians as well as officers who come in ships there is a cry for little girls” (Oliver, 1974, pp. 458–459, cited in Diamond, 1990). Among the Etoro of New Guinea, from about age 10 years, boys would have regular oral sex with older men, swallowing their semen to facilitate growth (Bauserman, 1997). Amongthe neighboring Kaluli, when a boy reached age 10 or 11, his father would select a man to inseminate him for a period of months to years. In addition, ceremonial hunting lodges would be organized where boys could voluntarily form relationships with men who would have sexual relations with them (Bauserman, 1997).

http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/pedophilia.htm

So, are all these examples of "sick" behaviour?
 
I'm really looking forward to the day when we can relate DNA expression to behavior and can then Scientifically point to the exact reasons why people in the ME have the superstitious governments and kings that they elect and support.

Then we won't have to worry about conjecture anymore (or blaming the west for a system of rule that has been selected for in the ME for greater than seven millennium).

You make me feel warmness in my tummy.
 
actually mohamed was ahead of his time...

No, not really.

Besides his youngest wife aisha was offered to him at the age of 8 or 9 i dont recall it precisely and the prophet answered no i will not marry her untill she becomes a woman ie has her first period.

You know you could always just read up on it, it isn't that hard. She wasn't divorced, she was previously betrothed and then the marriage was broken off.

"Aisha's father tried to spare her the dangers and discomfort of the journey by solemnizing her marriage to her fiance, Jubayr ibn Mut'im, son of Mut‘im ibn ‘Adi. However, Mut’am refused to honor the long-standing betrothal, as he did not wish his family to be connected to the Muslim outcasts."

Mohammad didn't "wait" for her first period.

"Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity." She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated. The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
 
I was speaking objectively, not morally. Why is sex considered "dirty" as such?

Sex isn't dirty. If both parties to the act understand and are old enough to comprehend what they are getting into.. for lack of a better term. Do you think a 10 year old is old enough to comprehend fully what sex actually is and all the risks involved with said sex?

My point is that someone who finds children sexually attractive.. a man who gets a hard on when looking at a child and a woman who gets aroused when looking at a child.. when that child becomes the object of desire to an adult.. that is sick. Imagine you have a 10 year old daughter and a 45 year old man tells you that he finds your daughter sexually appealing and attractive and he gets turned on by her. Would you feel proud or disgusted? Personally I'd remove his gonads and jam them down his throat. But that's just me.

So, are all these examples of "sick" behaviour?
What do you think? Do you think it is sick that an adult male gets aroused and turned on at the thought of a 10 year old boy performing oral sex on him.. so much so that he ejaculates into the boy's mouth? Or do you think it is normal behaviour?
 
Sam, merely because it's done in other societies doesn't mean it's not sick behavior. One could make any number of arguments about the "economic humanitarianism" of slavery, for instancem. But it's still based on an asymmetric relationship of human rights.

Put another way: what would you (you, personally) say about a Western man having sexual relations with a pre-teen Arab or Indian girl? Do I need to ask? It's sick, but you seem to feel it's all right in other cases. Your outrage seems tailored.
 
What would I, personally say about a Western man having sexual relations with his legally married Arab or Indian wife?

I'd say its none of my damn business.
 
Which brings me to the point: Was it right for the Europeans to pressure Arabs to ban Slavery? Should we have instead minded our own business?
 
What would I, personally say about a Western man having sexual relations with his legally married Arab or Indian wife?

I'd say its none of my damn business.

How about if she were 10 though? There's the thing. Sam would probably go ballistic. I think her ire about social inequity only rises if it's perceived as some kind of cultural insult.
 
What do you think? Do you think it is sick that an adult male gets aroused and turned on at the thought of a 10 year old boy performing oral sex on him.. so much so that he ejaculates into the boy's mouth? Or do you think it is normal behaviour?

I think people had similar notions about homosexuals. Apparently, whole societies have existed that did not consider pedophilia as immoral. The bonobos, among our closest relatives, apparently do not have moral reactions to it. In fact, it seems for the last 50,000 years, neither did people.

So I would say that its a relative moral position adopted very recently. As products of our society, I suppose, we consider it immoral. But thats not to say that this position will always be true.
 
I think people had similar notions about homosexuals. Apparently, whole societies have existed that did not consider pedophilia as immoral. The bonobos, among our closest relatives, apparently do not have moral reactions to it. In fact, it seems for the last 50,000 years, neither did people.
What does consensual sex between two adults of the same sex have to do with this discussion? Homosexuality was deemed immoral and bad because of the religious beliefs of people... so those notions stemmed from religious beliefs. In case you have forgotten, people of especially Abrahamic faiths consider homosexuality to be a blight on humanity and ban it outright. It was worse in the past.

Chimpanzees are also known to hunt down monkeys and eat their brains. Does that mean we should condone such behaviour in human society today? Some societies were also cannibals in historical times. And yet now, cannibalism is very rare these days and is viewed as being one of our most abhorrent periods in our history. Does that mean if someone kills another and eats their brain today, we should say it's not really immoral because in the past, it was deemed normal behaviour in some societies?

I have seen you many times condemning pedophiles in threads on this site. Why did you do so when you make this argument now in this thread? Why is it immoral for a man in the US to rape a child but not immoral and not rape if an ancient tribe in the Pacific did it a couple of hundred years ago? The laws in Polynesia have also changed and it is also illegal to have sex with children there. On the contrary, they place a very high value to children in general there. And harm one child and you'd be lucky to escape with the skin still attached to your back. I doubt they would swallow a spiel about how it wasn't immoral in the past and how it was common place.

So I would say that its a relative moral position adopted very recently. As products of our society, I suppose, we consider it immoral. But thats not to say that this position will always be true.
You suppose we consider it immoral? Do you think there will be a time in the future where adults will be having sex with 5 year olds and as a people, we'd just shrug and consider it normal?
 
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