Sciforums religion survey 2014

[Photizo]

even if I were the most kindest and the best type of altruist, I would still be destroyed in the lake of fire

False.
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;"

 

[davewhite04]

False.
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;"

Can you include the book/chapter and verse?

 

[Blue Eyes]

Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

dam, faith trumps reality every time

 

[Seattle]

Yeah, who wants reality?

 

[Blue Eyes]

in a world full of natural born liars, the Christian god isn't any more real now then he was before someone had to tell me all about him.

 

[Seattle]

Agreed.

 

[davewhite04]

Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

dam, faith trumps reality every time

I think Paul(Saul) was a nutcase. The only books i read(I have read all of Paul's crap) in the New Testament is Luke,Mark and John.

 

[davewhite04]

in a world full of natural born liars, the Christian god isn't any more real now then he was before someone had to tell me all about him.

We are not "natural born liars", the world transforms most of us into liars over time.

 

[Blue Eyes]

I think Paul(Saul) was a nutcase. The only books i read(I have read all of Paul's crap) in the New Testament is Luke,Mark and John.

Why? when It all originates from Paul's nutty revelation anyway.

We are not "natural born liars", the world transforms most of us into liars over time.

you might feel differently about it when your fifty

 

[davewhite04]

Why? when It all originates from Paul's nutty revelation anyway.

What originates from Paul's "revelation"?

Paul's teachings never made sense to me, it was contradictory, even though he had the gospels he still screwed up, he was an idiot fruitcake.

 

[Photizo]

Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

dam, faith trumps reality every time

You didn't answer his question. He was asking for chapter and verse of the passage I quoted.

 

[Cris]

Paul's teachings never made sense to me, it was contradictory, even though he had the gospels he still screwed up, he was an idiot fruitcake.

Paul's position makes most sense when it is realized he doesn't portray Christ as the God-Man known as Jesus, but only as a spirit. While bible translations often interchange the words Christ with Jesus etc, the pure Paul only refers to a Christ as a spiritual form. A Christ as a man sacrificed is a Gospel position. Paul never saw Jesus as an actual historical figure, that's why his writings do not support Gospel mythology. God as the man Jesus would be blasphemy to Paul.

 

[Cris]

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;"

If true then I don't need to believe in Jesus or God - that's fine with me. But it does mean that the bible verse John 3:15 - "so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life", is highly misleading since it heavily implies THE ONLY WAY is to believe in Jesus. The entire Baptist movement is based on this position.

 

[davewhite04]

Paul's position makes most sense when it is realized he doesn't portray Christ as the God-Man known as Jesus, but only as a spirit. While bible translations often interchange the words Christ with Jesus etc, the pure Paul only refers to a Christ as a spiritual form. A Christ as a man sacrificed is a Gospel position. Paul never saw Jesus as an actual historical figure, that's why his writings do not support Gospel mythology. God as the man Jesus would be blasphemy to Paul.

Paul waffled on about churches more than any other "apostle" by far, church=religion. Matthew did mention it too, in fact his writings are used as the foundation of the roman catholic church. Matthew i do not subscribe to either. Luke,Mark and John out of the new testament only for me.

 

[Cris]

Paul waffled on about churches more than any other "apostle" by far, church=religion. Matthew did mention it too, in fact his writings are used as the foundation of the roman catholic church. Matthew i do not subscribe to either. Luke,Mark and John out of the new testament only for me.

Remember that Mark came first and is the simplest, and is primarily a collection of the popular myths of the time. Mathew is simply a copy of Mark some 10 years later but highly enhanced so it would sell better. Luke and John also borrowed heavily from Mark.

Meanwhile Paul's letters and stuff was being written on a parallel track - geographically separate as well.

Paul pushed the spiritual perspective, while other fans liked the bloody crucifixion narrative, and of course there is meant to be only 1 god.

Moving on some 300 years later when Christianity is about to really take-off and the religion makers are faced with a real political dilemma. They are being hugely criticized by pushing a seemingly polytheistic version of the Abrahamic god and people were not happy. So all the leaders met in conference and they invented the horrible botch-up known as the trinity. Paul's spirit concept, the Jesus son concept, combined with the Abraham god concept. A mess of a religion that even today people still scratch their heads at the complex nonsense.

Islam in contrast kept the faith and stayed with the more understandable and attractive one god concept with their founder as a special prophet rather than a far fetched god-man. No wonder Islam is so popular.

 

[davewhite04]

...

I know the history, and I know the writings, they do not make sense... Jesus came with a message, period. Paul and Matt created Christianity, at its most basic level root level, which resulted in the opposite of what Jesus primarily preached... the crusaders must of all been walking around with big planks in their eyes.

 

[Photizo]

If true then I don't need to believe in Jesus or God - that's fine with me. But it does mean that the bible verse John 3:15 - "so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life", is highly misleading since it heavily implies THE ONLY WAY is to believe in Jesus. The entire Baptist movement is based on this position.

Hi, Cris,

Paul's comment is part of a larger argument extending over the course of a number of chapters leading the reader to (hopefully) acknowledge that he (the reader) is incapable of producing the means necessary to achieve immortality on his own. For that, he needs Jesus. Upon reaching that point, Paul then goes on to explain all that comes as a result. I quoted it to you to show that it is theoretically possible for a Human Being in God's 'economy' to attain immortality. That it does not happen to be you should be evident on its face. There was a Human Being Who DID accomplish what the statement I quoted to you requires. What is required of you to attain what you say you seek (Immortality) is not the accomplishment of that task, but the honesty to admit you can't....that you need Someone else to accomplish it for you. For such honesty, Immortality is granted as a gift. On paper, quite an easy thing; in practice, an insurmountable barrier for which even that God's help is required.

 

[Hapsburg]

I don't really get what's in contention here. Yes, religions change over time. So what?

 

[Amazing Moves]

The spirits are typically nature spirits, or the spirit of a particular place or location.
The god I've conversed with, and knew full well who it was, was Hermes. I've spoken with other beings that may have been a deity, but I don't know their names or exactly what they were. But Hermes is a certainty, and it was more than just me talking with him. So it was a case of collective gnosis, rather than just personal.

As far as how the conversations go, well, they're just usually like typical conversations. Asking questions and talking about things. With these spirits, it's often very simple things and not very much talking (a lot of fucking, though, yeesh); they typically seemed to have been rather unaccustomed to the finer points of human motor function and speech.
Hermes, well...he's a trickster god, as is noted much in Greek mythology and religion, so you can expect that he's a bit dodgy about things. He refused to speak, communicated only in hand signals, and made us guess as to who he was before proceeding. Then we just kinda asked questions. Not really general questions, like "what's the nature of universe" or "what's the meaning of life" kinda shit. Instead we asked somewhat personal stuff that a god might have insight into. Like, one of girls there asked if her patron goddess, Nyx, was still "there" or if she was ignoring her. I asked if Cernunnos and other horned deities were the same--since Cernunnos is my tutelary god. Nothing really earth-shaking, but it was my primary experience that solidly put me in the camp of relative certainty about the gods existing. It being a shared experience also helped, since I kinda had peer review of sorts.

How do you go about contacting them?

 

[Cris]

Paul's comment is part of a larger argument extending over the course of a number of chapters leading the reader to (hopefully) acknowledge that he (the reader) is incapable of producing the means necessary to achieve immortality on his own. For that, he needs Jesus.

That simply confirms my position that it isn't sufficient to just be good but that a belief in Jesus is a MANDATORY requirement. We can also take this further to assert that it is the ONLY requirement since someone who has been evil all their life can achieve immortality at his moment of death if he genuinely asks Jesus for forgiveness as his last breath. And in contrast a thoroughly good person cannot achieve immortality if he does not believe in Jesus or ever asks him for forgiveness. That is the entire and critical implication/assertion of John 3:15 - and I don't see that you have counteracted that.

Upon reaching that point, Paul then goes on to explain all that comes as a result. I quoted it to you to show that it is theoretically possible for a Human Being in God's 'economy' to attain immortality.

But you added "For that, he needs Jesus" which negates the claim that immortality is achievable WITHOUT a belief in Jesus.

That it does not happen to be you should be evident on its face.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

There was a Human Being Who DID accomplish what the statement I quoted to you requires.

Who did you have in mind? A real human and not a god-man, right? And how would you know if they have achieved immortality?

What is required of you to attain what you say you seek (Immortality) is not the accomplishment of that task, but the honesty to admit you can't....that you need Someone else to accomplish it for you. For such honesty, Immortality is granted as a gift. On paper, quite an easy thing; in practice, an insurmountable barrier for which even that God's help is required.

I understand the theological concept of immortality through the duality concept, and the rules you state are specific to the dogma you have chosen here. But an essential part of that dogma is the necessity to believe in Jesus and I don't see you have excluded that.