Scientific Approach to the Jesus question
- Thread starter Cris
- Start date
Of course you do.TheVisitor said:
"There is an eternal dispute between those who imagine the world to suit their policy, and those who correct their policy to suit the realities of the world." - Albert Sorel
This makes no sense at all.TheVisitor said:
PET scans and CAT scans do not differentiate between conscious and subconscious brain processes.
They simply look at brain activity.
The difference between conscious and subconscious brain processes is simply whether we are aware of what is going on in our brains.
It would be akin to typing on this keyboard and my heart beating.
All of the brain is used at one time or another.
We are getting off track anyway.
Bring this up on one of the ridiculous "What's the OTHER 90% used for?" threads that come up once a month or so.
Yes, off track....
But I was mentioning something along the lines of proving the existence of Jesus in there if you look.
This is how a prophet, a seer, hears from God.
The conscious and subconscious in a normal person as I mentioned are separate.
But in a prophet of God the two are right together.
The wall separating the two is removed allowing what comes through the subconscious to be "seen" by the prophet while they are yet awake.
A normal person has to be asleep and dreaming.
Thats why God said when the Spirit was poured out upon all flesh in these last days,
"Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams."
DANIEL 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
DANIEL 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus came in the office of a prophet.
Thats what "Son of man" means, and He said He was coming back the same way....through the office of a prophet as the Son of man revealed from heaven.
Thats not appearing in His mortal body, but His theophany, that pillar of fire speaking through a vessel here on the Earth manifesting the same exact vindications He did of the Father when He was here in human form.
The sign of the Messiah.
The woman at the well, after hearing all she had ever done, said; "We know when the Messiah comes, He will tell us these things"....
LUKE 17:30
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
The organized churches are missing this.
There is no need to talk of Jesus as some mythical 2000 year old character.
He is here now, to be seen by those looking for Him.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
But I was mentioning something along the lines of proving the existence of Jesus in there if you look.
This is how a prophet, a seer, hears from God.
The conscious and subconscious in a normal person as I mentioned are separate.
But in a prophet of God the two are right together.
The wall separating the two is removed allowing what comes through the subconscious to be "seen" by the prophet while they are yet awake.
A normal person has to be asleep and dreaming.
Thats why God said when the Spirit was poured out upon all flesh in these last days,
"Your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams."
DANIEL 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
DANIEL 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus came in the office of a prophet.
Thats what "Son of man" means, and He said He was coming back the same way....through the office of a prophet as the Son of man revealed from heaven.
Thats not appearing in His mortal body, but His theophany, that pillar of fire speaking through a vessel here on the Earth manifesting the same exact vindications He did of the Father when He was here in human form.
The sign of the Messiah.
The woman at the well, after hearing all she had ever done, said; "We know when the Messiah comes, He will tell us these things"....
LUKE 17:30
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
The organized churches are missing this.
There is no need to talk of Jesus as some mythical 2000 year old character.
He is here now, to be seen by those looking for Him.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
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There were skeptics who would not be convinced in Jesus day.
But he answered and said unto them,.....
An evil and an adulternous generation seeketh a sign; and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
A greater than Soloman is here.
Jesus Christ is here to be found by those who are truly looking.
But to the others He said this......
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
The same applies today.
Also in Luke 17:22 to 30, He said:
As it was in the days of Lot, before Sodom was burned, so shall it be at the return of the Son of man, in that day when the Son of man is being revealed.
I Thessalonians the 5th chapter...
But of the times and of the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destructions cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are the children of the light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, or of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
One more....
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
My point to you is this.....Jesus, as it is written of Him seemed to make a concerted effort NOT to reveal His true identity to skeptics and unbelievers for a reason.
He has not changed......God doesn't change His mind or "learn something new".
If you truly want to find evidence of Him, not just to refute it but for your own sake to find out......
See what He was reported to be in the past, because He will still be the same in the present.
I don't mean some nail scars or something, but His character.
It will be the same.
I can't justify revealing more of what He has revealed to me personally, for many reasons.....not because there is nothing to reveal.
But I don't feel at this point He would have me do it.
Many times He would perform miracles on a person, like I have just had done to me, and He would say to them; "tell it to no man".
Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,Tell the vision to no man.
(See, "Don't tell this. You know it, but keep it to yourself)
So there is a "precedent" for what I am saying, or rather not saying.
But he answered and said unto them,.....
An evil and an adulternous generation seeketh a sign; and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
A greater than Soloman is here.
Jesus Christ is here to be found by those who are truly looking.
But to the others He said this......
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
The same applies today.
Also in Luke 17:22 to 30, He said:
As it was in the days of Lot, before Sodom was burned, so shall it be at the return of the Son of man, in that day when the Son of man is being revealed.
I Thessalonians the 5th chapter...
But of the times and of the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destructions cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are the children of the light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, or of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
One more....
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
My point to you is this.....Jesus, as it is written of Him seemed to make a concerted effort NOT to reveal His true identity to skeptics and unbelievers for a reason.
He has not changed......God doesn't change His mind or "learn something new".
If you truly want to find evidence of Him, not just to refute it but for your own sake to find out......
See what He was reported to be in the past, because He will still be the same in the present.
I don't mean some nail scars or something, but His character.
It will be the same.
I can't justify revealing more of what He has revealed to me personally, for many reasons.....not because there is nothing to reveal.
But I don't feel at this point He would have me do it.
Many times He would perform miracles on a person, like I have just had done to me, and He would say to them; "tell it to no man".
Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,Tell the vision to no man.
(See, "Don't tell this. You know it, but keep it to yourself)
So there is a "precedent" for what I am saying, or rather not saying.
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The Visitor
Quite rightly so it would seem. And those writing the fiction and passing it as true would be wise to write-in such tricks.
We can’t even show he ever existed so we certainly have no evidence of anything he might have said. So quoting the myths of what he allegedly said isn’t productive.
Been looking for 40 years and the more I look the more I have come to realize he is entirely fictitious.
How very convenient for you. But a pretty dumb plan it would seem. If there had really been something to show he existed then he’d have a lot more followers and of course more would be saved, right?
Riiiight!!
LOL. Go see a therapist – you are ill.
Cris said:
So just because you can't find something, you declare it doesn't exist?
There's much more evidence that Jesus lived on Earth than almost any other ancient historical figure, think about the eyewitness accounts, the probems which the Jesus-begun Christianity caused for Rome, and consider that perhaps a third of Jerusalem, many of whom, no doubt, had seen Jesus, became Christians, and the faith spread like wildfire.
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M*W: Then if there is all that massive evidence about Jesus' existence, please provide us with that evidence. That shouldn't be too hard since there is so much of it out there. The sun, however,did, does, and will always exist, and it was the basis of all religious worship.
"The Sun will always exist?" Do tell.
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M*W: As long as we're here, the sun will be here. If the sun should die out, so would we.
Just look at the evidences that Plato or Aristotle lived, and compare that to the evidence that Jesus lived.
Funny how the earlier something allegedly existed (Hercules, Zues, Plato, Aristotle, Achilles, etc.) the less credible it seems.
Actually, its not funny. It makes perfect sense. It is way easier to make an "outrageous" claim (Hercules existed, Achilles existed, etc.) when there is no "mainstream media" or "newspapers" or "computer records" to back it up.
If Jesus had existed today, his existence wouldn't be documented by only two 2000 year old ancient books with NO BACKUP OR SUPPORT FROM ANY OUTSIDE SOURCES. Instead, his existence would be well documented, his words and message would be digitally recorded exactly as he said it, and there would be thousands upon thousands of outside sources all acknowledging his existence and his miracles. In fact, one would probably be able to find his miracles on Youtube and say to themselves, "WOW, I just saw this guy named Jesus raise this guy from the dead who had been four days!!!! Oh wait, in this one he makes a man legally born blind see again. No, make that hundreds of legally born blind men. Hey here's another video where he's just healed 300 people who had cancer. I think I'll believe in this guy."
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M*W: Let me add a post-script to that... "I will be with you all days even to the end of the age." Alleged words of Jesus about the sun.
The question isn't about the evidences that exist to support the existence of these figures. Its about the evidence you claim exists to support the existence of Jesus. Cite it here (unless its already been put forth and debunked by Iasion).
The only evidence you've attempted to show to date is fallacious: appeals to authority; appeals to popularity; appeals to personal incredulity; etc.
Try some evidence that is testable, repeatable, has predictive power, etc. You know: real evidence. Not the imaginary kind.
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M*W: Apples and oranges. Plato and Aristotle lived and wrote and were famous philosophers. Jesus didn't write anything, he said nothing that is attributed to him, and no one has been able to prove in 2007 years that he existed. Why? Because he didn't! Plato, Aristotle and Socrates lived and left legacies for posterity. These are two different cases of existence. The philosophers lived in history. Jesus lived in myth.
regarding Plato and Aristotle, firstly we have to go to the comparison you made regarding a jesus character, as there are a myriad of older sons of god/heros scenerios with extremely similar stories to this jesus character, we can rule him out as existing, or at least not being anything anybody has glorified him to be. there may have been a young rabbi, who had the ear of a few cult members. but nothing of any worth.
but for Plato and Aristotle, thers is no myriad of older stories, all we rely on for them is there writings and other historical writings of the time, we can never be absolutely sure either man existed however the probability they did, is a thousand % more than a jesus character.
That makes no sense, you have eyewitness accounts of Jesus, nothing like that about Plato and Aristotle.