Science of Water Memory?

KUMAR5 said:
I tend to base on sense instead of language or formal presentation. Slaping in reaction to slap justify example of newtons 3rd law of motion.
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Then, as I noted earlier, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.
 
exchemist said:
This also has been explained to you. If you can still smell it, you have not washed all the molecules away. There is no need to invoke woo.
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Is it not similar to homeopathic way of potentization process? They also do not wash bottles but simply throw 99% solution' snd then fill again with 99% fresh water. No cleaning, no shop or other cleaning substsnce is used. If it is well justified here that molecular presence is alwsys there, it can not be said as woo now. Type of effects ftom these molecules, if strong or weak is a different issue.
 
KUMAR5 said:
Whatever, memory of water is there or not but molecular presence is justified, digging water memory issue has no sense. Water memory digging was only important when molechular presence was not justified. Okay?

If we say that memory is limited to biological subjects, whole global modern or even evolutionary system will fail.
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In your first paragraph you say that memory is not important.

In your second paragraph you say that memory is important and things will fail without it.

Doesn't make much sense.
When molecular presence is justified, homeooathy now can not be tsken as woo. Simply it need to be regularized in science, which their community may not prefer.
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Here is what is woo: (based on the Wikipedia definition of homeopathy)

"Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made using homeopathic dilution. In this process, the selected substance is repeatedly diluted until the final product is chemically indistinguishable from the diluent. Often not even a single molecule of the original substance can be expected to remain in the product. Between each dilution homeopaths may hit and/or shake the product, claiming this makes the diluent 'remember' the original substance after its removal. Practitioners claim that such preparations, upon oral intake, can treat or cure disease."

That is what is woo.
 
billvon said:
In your first paragraph you say that memory is not important.

In your second paragraph you say that memory is important and things will fail without it.

Doesn't make much sense.

Here is what is woo: (based on the Wikipedia definition of homeopathy)

"Homeopathic preparations are termed remedies and are made using homeopathic dilution. In this process, the selected substance is repeatedly diluted until the final product is chemically indistinguishable from the diluent. Often not even a single molecule of the original substance can be expected to remain in the product. Between each dilution homeopaths may hit and/or shake the product, claiming this makes the diluent 'remember' the original substance after its removal. Practitioners claim that such preparations, upon oral intake, can treat or cure disease."

That is what is woo.
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That is not woo but that is ignorance. Ignorance of that, molecules of active subtsnces can remain ptesent in higher dilition due to adsorption and desorption.

You can name it memory or actual molecular presence. Without molecular presence there is no possibility(acc to current scientific understsnding) that information and storage of active substance is possible. This can be the only mean by which homeooathic remedies can be justified.
 
KUMAR5 said:
That is not woo but that is ignorance. Ignorance of that, molecules of active subtsnces can remain ptesent in higher dilition due to adsorption and desorption.
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Of course molecules can remain if you do not dilute the solution sufficiently. No one is arguing against that.

The woo comes in when you bring in the "memory" of water or that pure water can cure disease.
You can name it memory or actual molecular presence. Without molecular presence there is no possibility(acc to current scientific understsnding) that information and storage of active substance is possible. This can be the only mean by which homeooathic remedies can be justified.
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That is woo.
 
It sounds like Kumar has no clue what the word, "Memory" means.
 
(Q) said:
It sounds like Kumar has no clue what the word, "Memory" means.
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Indeed. But that seems to be the least of his problems.

I honestly don't know why people like him post on a science forum. He did the same things three years ago, pretending his question was about something else but eventually...up periscope...it turned out to be homeopathy.

By the way, for fun, I quote one of my posts from the end of the thread this poster made 3 years ago:

Yes I know. This short article in the Smithsonian magazine summarises the state of play in 2015: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ts-conclude-homeopathy-doesnt-work-180954534/

But...there is still money to be made by charlatans from gullible fools, and so it goes on, like all the crystals-and-shit woo we have to endure.

Sometimes it seems to me there is a political dimension to this nonsense, e.g people with a chip on their shoulder about what they see as the dominance of "Western" science and medicine, who want to assert some sort of equivalence for "Eastern" methods. But homeopathy is not one of these, having been invented by a German charlatan called Hahnemann about 200 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

P.S. Hahn is German for cock, appropriately enough.

:D
 
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(Q) said:
It sounds like Kumar has no clue what the word, "Memory" means.
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No, I bet he knows what it means, I'd say he's employing a classic "Write4Uism":

1. Take a weasel word with multiple meanings a and b,
2. Use meaning a to make argument A,
3. Use meaning b to make argument B,
4. Claim a=b, therefore A=B .
 
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(Q) said:
It sounds like Kumar has no clue what the word, "Memory" means.
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No, i was only concerned, how memory of water experiment was concluded, that final solution is nothing other than plain water when molecular presence of active and other substance was there in that solution?
 
billvon said:
Of course molecules can remain if you do not dilute the solution sufficiently. No one is arguing against that.

The woo comes in when you bring in the "memory" of water or that pure water can cure disease.

That is woo.
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No, molecules of active and other substsnces will always be there even after sufficient dilution i.e. beyond Avagdro.
Memory of water would have to be there due to presence of these molecules in water.

Anyway, when molecular presence is justified nothing else term hold any value.
 
DaveC426913 said:
No, I bet he knows what it means, I'd say he's employing a classic "Write4Uism":

1. Take a weasel word with multiple meanings a and b,
2. Use meaning a to make argument A,
3. Use meaning b to make argument B,
4. Claim a=b, therefore A=B .
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If you keep 100 dollers in your pockets, will you memorize it or not?
Alike when molecules are there in water, it will impress water in any way.
 
exchemist said:
Indeed. But that seems to be the least of his problems.

I honestly don't know why people like him post on a science forum. He did the same things three years ago, pretending his question was about something else but eventually...up periscope...it turned out to be homeopathy.

By the way, for fun, I quote one of my posts from the end of the thread this poster made 3 years ago:

Yes I know. This short article in the Smithsonian magazine summarises the state of play in 2015: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ts-conclude-homeopathy-doesnt-work-180954534/

But...there is still money to be made by charlatans from gullible fools, and so it goes on, like all the crystals-and-shit woo we have to endure.

Sometimes it seems to me there is a political dimension to this nonsense, e.g people with a chip on their shoulder about what they see as the dominance of "Western" science and medicine, who want to assert some sort of equivalence for "Eastern" methods. But homeopathy is not one of these, having been invented by a German charlatan called Hahnemann about 200 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

P.S. Hahn is German for cock, appropriately enough.

:D
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Odd preception can make one to look on the negative side of anything. Whereas even preception can make him to look on the positive side. Try to understand science of any unclear but mass existing thing with even preception or positive side. As such nothing is fully positive or fully negative.
 
KUMAR: even you know there's no science to homeopathy - you can't even talk about it without having to resort to nonsense language such as 'memory of water'.

If you can manage to ask a well-defined question without slipping into woo, that would be a good start.
 
KUMAR5 said:
No, molecules of active and other substsnces will always be there even after sufficient dilution i.e. beyond Avagdro.
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There's a simple physical reality.

Are there molecules of the substance there? Then the substance exists. Are there NO molecules of the substance there? Then it does not exist and has no effect.

Very, very simple.
Memory of water would have to be there due to presence of these molecules in water.
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Pure woo believed only by gullible fools.
 
DaveC426913 said:
KUMAR: even you know there's no science to homeopathy - you can't even talk about it without having to resort to nonsense language such as 'memory of water'.

If you can manage to ask a well-defined question without slipping into woo, that would be a good start.
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My concern for this topic was just to check molecular possibilty in higher potencies which is justified. Another concern was that how experimenters declared higher potencies are nothing other than plain water which has came to be false claim. Nothing else in this topic. Thanks.
 
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