Science of Water Memory?

[KUMAR5]

It is woo. It has not passed ANY scientific validation.

Not.

How sheded molecules/particles of active substances which would had been adsorbed on bottle glass wall and of glass wall itself can always exist in all dilutions? Read my personal observation of one aromatic syrup I quoted earlier in this topic.

 

[KUMAR5]

Here, I would like to mention that Glass is composed of about 71% Silica and Silica has much absorbing or adsorbing property. Not so?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-of-the-waste-glass-and-cement_tbl1_316274890

 

[billvon]

How sheded molecules/particles of active substances which would had been adsorbed on bottle glass wall and of glass wall itself can always exist in all dilutions?

Of course they exist. Just as there is nuclear waste in your salad. But the key is that the concentrations are so small that they don't affect you.

 

[Seattle]

Of course they exist. Just as there is nuclear waste in your salad. But the key is that the concentrations are so small that they don't affect you.

So nuclear waste that was "adsorbed" from salad bowl walls may be why salad is so good for us. Not so?

 

[KUMAR5]

Of course they exist. Just as there is nuclear waste in your salad. But the key is that the concentrations are so small that they don't affect you.

Thanks but this is just your assumption. Because I felt some taste and smell of syrup inspite of repeated use as water bottle. We need to check the quantity in every potency. Moreover lower quantity matter more in homeopathic theory and hormones like at many places needle matter more than a sword.However it will be different topic.

But now it is for sure some quantity will definate be there even in higher dilution. So the claim from scientific community that higher dilutions are nothing other than water is false. Molecular quantity will exist as under(other than water):-
1C 1+99=100 of i.e. 1 active substance +99 water
2C 1 out of above 100+ 99 water + few sheded molecules of active substance and few from bottle glass wall.

After 12C(Beyond Avagdro)
Nothing from direct dilution of active substance+ Some sheded molecules of glass wall which got adsorbed+ few by shedding from bottle glass molecules.

I am not accounting normal air pollution which can also enter into solution during repeated dilution process.
Okay?

 

[KUMAR5]

Adsorption is the adhesion of atoms, ions or molecules from a gas, liquid or dissolved solid to a surface.[1] This process creates a film of the adsorbate on the surface of the adsorbent. This process differs from absorption, in which a fluid (the absorbate) is dissolved by or permeates a liquid or solid (the absorbent), respectively.[2] Adsorption is a surface phenomenon, while absorption involves the whole volume of the material, although adsorption does often precede absorption.[3] The term sorption encompasses both processes, while desorption is the reverse of it.
Similar to surface tension, adsorption is a consequence of surface energy. In a bulk material, all the bonding requirements (be they ionic, covalent or metallic) of the constituent atoms of the material are filled by other atoms in the material. However, atoms on the surface of the adsorbent are not wholly surrounded by other adsorbent atoms and therefore can attract adsorbates. The exact nature of the bonding depends on the details of the species involved, but the adsorption process is generally classified as physisorption (characteristic of weak van der Waals forces) or chemisorption (characteristic of covalent bonding). It may also occur due to electrostatic attraction.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption#:~:text=Adsorption is the adhesion of,the surface of the adsorbent.

Rooh Afza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooh_Afza

I am just quoting above for referance.

 

[river]

Look up Water Research . And Memory .

When you do .....you will find some very interesting things about water .

 

[exchemist]

No I am not lying. They either denied theoretically based on that time understanding of science or based experiments to find out physiological or therapeutic effects. But I made a concern, when sledded molecules of both active substance due to adsorption and of glass walls can exist in higher dilutions, how they rejected water memory theory that it is nothing other than same water? Neither in scientific theory nor in testing experiments for presence of other molecules in higher dilution can be justified. I am not talking about therapeutic or physiological effects in this topic because it is a different subject.

Just confirm, can sheded adsorbed molecules of active substances and of glass wall molecules as a result of homeopathic potentization process be present or not in higher potencies ?

No, of course not. If adsorbed molecules are shed into the solvent, they simply produce a low concentration of the substance in solution. There is no way to get around the basic fact that the more you dilute a solution, the less of the substance you have and the less the effect of it will be. There is no memory retained by water: the molecules rearrange all the time and a given configuration only remains for the order of 50 femtoseconds. This is not theory. It has been measured.

Homeopathy is baseless pseudoscience.

 

[KUMAR5]

No, of course not. If adsorbed molecules are shed into the solvent, they simply produce a low concentration of the substance in solution. There is no way to get around the basic fact that the more you dilute a solution, the less of the substance you have and the less the effect of it will be. There is no memory retained by water: the molecules rearrange all the time and a given configuration only remains for the order of 50 femtoseconds. This is not theory. It has been measured.

Homeopathy is baseless pseudoscience.

I perceive that desorbed molecules are memory of active substance in water. It will justify molecular or information or memory of active substance will always exist in water in higher dilutions. How it can give physiological effects is beyond the scope of this topic.

 

[DaveC426913]

I perceive that desorbed molecules are memory of active substance in water.

You want to apply science, but then you use woo phrases like 'memory'.

Which way do you want to go? Science or woo? You must pick one.

 

[billvon]

Thanks but this is just your assumption.

Nope. It's a fact. If you eat lettuce grown outside, then it has thorium on it - a decay product of uranium, put there both from nuclear tests in the atmosphere and from coal burning plants that release that into the air. It's a few atoms, of course - but it is there nonetheless.
Fortunately, that nuclear waste (and the active ingredients in homeopathic medicines) are present in such small quantities that they cannot affect you.

But now it is for sure some quantity will definate be there even in higher dilution. So the claim from scientific community that higher dilutions are nothing other than water is false.

No one claims that. What IS true is that the ingredients are present in such a small quantity that they have no effect. The claim that the water 'remembers' what was in it is pure woo.

 

[KUMAR5]

You want to apply science, but then you use woo phrases like 'memory'.

Which way do you want to go? Science or woo? You must pick one.

Suppose you mix some salt in eater, why can't we say that this water has memory of salt due to molecular presence of salt in that water? Is it non scientific to say it like that?

Similarily, when molecules of active substsnce is present in water of higher potencies , why it can not be scientifiically called that this water has memory of active substance?

 

[DaveC426913]

Suppose you mix some salt in eater, why can't we say that this water has memory of salt due to molecular presence of salt in that water? Is it non scientific to say it like that?

Yes. That is unscientific.

Similarily, when molecules of active substsnce is present in water of higher potencies , why it can not be scientifiically called that this water has memory of active substance?

Because that too is unscientific.


We could say that the Sun and Moon are chariots that chase each other across the sky, but it would not lead to a very scientific understanding of them.

 

[KUMAR5]

Nope. It's a fact. If you eat lettuce grown outside, then it has thorium on it - a decay product of uranium, put there both from nuclear tests in the atmosphere and from coal burning plants that release that into the air. It's a few atoms, of course - but it is there nonetheless.
Fortunately, that nuclear waste (and the active ingredients in homeopathic medicines) are present in such small quantities that they cannot affect you.

No one claims that. What IS true is that the ingredients are present in such a small quantity that they have no effect. The claim that the water 'remembers' what was in it is pure woo.

The common claim by scientific advocators and skeptics remained that higher potencies are nothing other than plain water. But this is proven false under this adsorption and resorotion scope. Regarding effectiveness from such a low quantity, it is also already understood in science that depending on quanitity, subtsnces have biphasic effect under hormesis that high dose inhibition snd low dose stimulation of physiological activities. You can try it just look. Look at whole screen of your laptop and than at a dot in that. You will need more concentration mean more physiological activity to see a dot than seeing the whole screen.

 

[KUMAR5]

Yes. That is unscientific.



Because that too is unscientific.


We could say that the Sun and Moon are chariots that chase each other across the sky, but it would not lead to a very scientific understanding of them.

Sorry, it is irrelevant example. You can test and find salt in water in scientific way but can not sun and moon are chariots.

 

[DaveC426913]

Sorry, it is irrelevant example. You can test and find salt in water in scientific way but can not sun and moon are chariots.

Nor can you find memory of water in a scientific way. Memory is a product of a living neural system.

The idea of memory of water is as unscientific as the Sun and Moon being chariots. Both are misleading metaphors, harmful to a rational understanding of the phenomena being studied.

 

[billvon]

The common claim by scientific advocators and skeptics remained that higher potencies are nothing other than plain water.

OK that's fine. I don't claim that, so the rest of your argument doesn't really apply to me.

Regarding effectiveness from such a low quantity, it is also already understood in science that depending on quanitity, subtsnces have biphasic effect under hormesis that high dose inhibition snd low dose stimulation of physiological activities.

Right. Many substances have different effects at low and high concentrations.

You can try it just look. Look at whole screen of your laptop and than at a dot in that. You will need more concentration mean more physiological activity to see a dot than seeing the whole screen.

Of course. But if you reduce the pixel size to the size of an atom, you will not see it. Even if it's literally still there.

 

[paddoboy]

I see predictably that someone else has latched onto this woo woo nonsense in the fringes...

 

[KUMAR5]

Nor can you find memory of water in a scientific way. Memory is a product of a living neural system.

The idea of memory of water is as unscientific as the Sun and Moon being chariots. Both are misleading metaphors, harmful to a rational understanding of the phenomena being studied.

Computer is a non living device, still its memory is tsken into consideration. How when it has no no neural system?

 

[KUMAR5]

OK that's fine. I don't claim that, so the rest of your argument doesn't really apply to me.

Right. Many substances have different effects at low and high concentrations.

Of course. But if you reduce the pixel size to the size of an atom, you will not see it. Even if it's literally still there.

Thanks. I was only interested to justify molecular or information or memory presence of active substsnces in higher potencies in this topic which is justified.
You can not say that atom has no relevance with pixel i.e. somewhat 1 or zero has no importance in one million. When our body get sense of defficiency due to some rxposure of abnormally low quantity, obiously it will try to increase its physiological activities to normalize this defficiency. When you put few drop of water on face of a sleeping person, he awakes and start doing his needed physiological activities. It suggests that low dose also have stimulation effect.