Science in Parapsychology

Crunchy Cat said:
Here is the excerpt from the experiment. Notice the bold-faced phrases. They show that the experimenter, receiver, and sender were not deprived of sensory input from each other. Now take into account the knowns that people WANT psi to be real so bad that they are willing to deceive each other.

Feel free to choose your 'intellectually honest' skeptic.
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Dude, seriously. That is after the experiment has been done to determine the results....not during. What you are essentially saying is that they are never allowed to determine if the results were above chance or not. Did you miss the next line: "Note that the experimenter did not even know the identity of the four-clip judging set until it was displayed to the receiver for judging."

See if you can find any sceptic that agrees with your interpretation [shaman, skinwalker, sarkus, helio, or anyone else]

Crunchy Cat said:
From:

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa093002a.htm

"...chronicles a series of laboratory experiments conducted with a group of well-known mediums - including John Edward - to see if their claims of contact with "the other side" could be scientifically measured and documented..."

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosts

"..."ghost" may also refer to the spirit or soul of a deceased person, or to any spirit or demon..."
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1) You don't get my point. This could be them getting information from the people they are reading (telepathy or cold-reading). Besides, supposing your right and this is evidence of ghosts... whats your point? You provide me a post of evidence of the paranormal to try and disprove evidence of the paranormal. Funny.
 
grover said:
Dude, seriously. That is after the experiment has been done to determine the results....not during. What you are essentially saying is that they are never allowed to determine if the results were above chance or not. Did you miss the next line: "Note that the experimenter did not even know the identity of the four-clip judging set until it was displayed to the receiver for judging."

See if you can find any sceptic that agrees with your interpretation [shaman, skinwalker, sarkus, helio, or anyone else]
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Well that's not entirely true. The first boldfaced snippet was what happend after a session. The second one was what happend DURING. You've also missing the point. The experimenter is not in any kind of isolation chamber and if he was not adequately shielded from the sener then he could intentionally or unintentionally relay cues across the board via the intercom. Really for this to work EVERYONE would have to be in an distanced isolation chamber with ZERO communication of any kind (except psychic)... before, after, or otherwise.

grover said:
1) You don't get my point. This could be them getting information from the people they are reading (telepathy or cold-reading). Besides, supposing your right and this is evidence of ghosts... whats your point? You provide me a post of evidence of the paranormal to try and disprove evidence of the paranormal. Funny.
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The point was that I put psi into the same bucket as ghosts, demons, vampires, etc. and then you said show me any serious research done on these other things... implying that psi was the only 'paranormal' field that someone had seriously reseached. So, I provided an example for ghosts to show you thats not the case.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Well that's not entirely true. The first boldfaced snippet was what happend after a session. The second one was what happend DURING. You've also missing the point. The experimenter is not in any kind of isolation chamber and if he was not adequately shielded from the sener then he could intentionally or unintentionally relay cues across the board via the intercom. Really for this to work EVERYONE would have to be in an distanced isolation chamber with ZERO communication of any kind (except psychic)... before, after, or otherwise.
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No, the experimenter is blind. He has no information to give away.

Crunchy Cat said:
The point was that I put psi into the same bucket as ghosts, demons, vampires, etc. and then you said show me any serious research done on these other things... implying that psi was the only 'paranormal' field that someone had seriously reseached. So, I provided an example for ghosts to show you thats not the case.
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No, what you gave could be evidence of telpeathy (i.e., getting information from the living people and not the deceased entity). I wouldn't waste too much time on this point though - the best you can hope to show is that there has been serious research done on these things.
 
grover said:
No, the experimenter is blind. He has no information to give away.
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Naturally.

grover said:
No, what you gave could be evidence of telpeathy (i.e., getting information from the living people and not the deceased entity). I wouldn't waste too much time on this point though - the best you can hope to show is that there has been serious research done on these things.
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That's exactly what I was showing. I am certainly not advocating that ghosts exist, or psi, or vampires, or wherewolves, or any other fantasy. They are all in the same bucket-o-delusion. You too can have your very own delusion for $19.95 + shipping and handling. Act now, and we'll throw in a free pint of bbq sauce!
 
Crunchy Cat said:
That's exactly what I was showing. I am certainly not advocating that ghosts exist, or psi, or vampires, or wherewolves, or any other fantasy. They are all in the same bucket-o-delusion. You too can have your very own delusion for $19.95 + shipping and handling. Act now, and we'll throw in a free pint of bbq sauce!
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You haven't shown anything.
 
Just a few interesting thoughts:

If you have the ability to do amazing super-normal things, by definition, you would be smart. Would you expose yourself so that you can collect one million dollar from Amazing Randi, or would you just think the number and get the powerball quietly?

Or, just play the stock market and be rich without letting anybody know, your secret....

If you have paranormal power, why would you want to broadcast? If so, why would you find real proof in a sciforum? If I had some powers, I surely would not expose myself to the NSA unless it is in the nations best interest. For example, if I dreamt that a nuclear bomb heading our way and remember the container number or the ship ID, I surely would pass that info to the authorities or then may be not if I think they might lock me up if it turns out to be true....
 
Good points. The other thing is if there are people with abilities they'd be treated as national security issues whether they wanted to be or not.
 
By the way, FBI, NSA, DHS do not like very smart people. A friend of mine had amazing technology solutions and he could not pass through the gatekeepers. Now he is doing private business work. So semi-intelligent people in the government definitely will be afraid of these people with abilities.
 
And yet there are still so many who do claim they have powers as well as many applying for the challenge. What you are suggesting is possible but sounds a little like the no true scotsman fallacy.

It is certainly likely that many would stay away from the spotlight and keep their abilities quiet but I think at least one person would come forward. Either they would desire the money, the fame, or one of Randi's long time opponents would find them and encourage them.

Would psychic powers necessarily mean you are more intelligent?

Are many of the richest financial people in the world psychic? Are many of the lotto winners psychic? :shrug:
 
Hi Guys, fun thread.
A number of comments if I may.

1] Skinwalker and ilk are quite right in demanding proper evidence of psychic pheno before switching their beliefs. However that does not deny the reality of psychic phenomena. Our psychiatric institutions are full of persons caught up in it.

2] A free energy device will be tested in London july 1st this year. Only 30 odd days to go.
link to their incredible web site is
www.steorn.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn
They have invested in $185000 aud and countless other bucks just to get interested scientists to validate their device. A jury of 12 selected scientists will be in before 1st July 2007.
At present I have no reason to doubt their genuine nature.
I would suggets to Skinwalker and co to have a serious look and apply their scepticism as they see fit.

3] Just because psychic pheno can not be predicted and repeatable does not make is delusion or less real. Since when has the truth ever required belief or repeatability [ re:transient truths]

example:
"A fly landed on my shoulder yesterday.
"Can you prove it?"
"Nope"
"Will is do it again?"
"Don't know"
"Then the fly must have been a delusion....."

silly hey?

4] Science cannot even provethe existance of a photon particle or wave or both. They can only prove the effect of EM and not the EM itself due to the inability to differentiate the EM radiation from the reflector of that EM.

Science normally requires more than circumstancial evidence to support a theory but yet here we have photon theory, the most important theory science has, and yet it is based purely on circumstancial evidence.

I ask the Skinwalker and others of such high degrees of scepticism to devote a little attention to probably our most significant hoax yet. That being photon theory.

31 days to go before significant global change occurs. Party hats are required for entry....:)
 
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just like we don't even have a good defination of telepathy. I am sure if this is responded to it will not be the correct defination. Such is the case. Intended on creating a thread specifically asking for the defination of telepathy. Obviously the one in the dictionary (mine at least) is INCORRECT or would otherwise prove that telepathy exists. This is a condition we seem to be in, I ask you to define it.
 
Telepathy

Hi,

Telepathy essentially means the direct communication of thoughts between people without using the basic five senses. There is a huge difference, however, between having a creepy feeling that someone is watching you and being able to pick the plans for a nuclear reactor out of an unsuspecting scientist’s mind. Mental telepathy covers a huge range of abilities from very basic to fairly complex. This article will attempt to explain the different levels of mental telepathy.
 
What article? Yes I did some experiements in telepathy when in high school to amazing results...later when in college, the same experiement with other friends did not work. So, I gave up.
 
Bob's post was a copy/paste of the first paragraph of an article written by Rachael Jordan and posted on a New Age blog.

In other words, BobMarshall's first and (so far) only post with us is plagiarized.
 
kmguru,

psychic hits would be more likely to predict winning numbers for lotteries at an above chance level for prolonged periods, and not pick outright winners. Getting one number every draw would defy the odds greatly especially over an extended period of time. The Randi foundation million dollars is a myth, and anybody that contacts him will just get hounded with ridiculing emails for a while.

The global consciousness experiment has individuals trying to influence random coin flip type generators to see if they can get them to influence them to cast more votes to heads or tails. That is the just of it, but it is a random number generator.

The odds of the seemingly incredible results from this experiment which is ongoing is now measured in billions tone against chance. Billions to one against chance is not a valid proof for James Randi or any sceptic. They will say forget about the billion I vote for the one. It is a sad and narrow-minded view these people have, and I've seen results I would like explanations for.

My argument for starting this thread is that it is impossible to even discuss the "how" or "why" of these results (meaning the millions to one, and billions to one) type of results that have occurred in very legitimate studies, when I can guarantee the next three posts in this forum will be people saying "oogady-boogady", because they feel it it makes them look smart to other sceptics. Maybe so, but to others who have seen unexplainable observations and want explanations they just appear foolish, and kind of dumb for even bothering.
 
The human brain is as yet far from understood, yet it has evolved many coping mechanisms to enable our species to survive and thrive despite challenging and changing conditions.

I am of the opinion that as we design instrumentation that permits us greater access to the functions of the brain, that many of the unexplainable events and experiences reported by people will find a respectful context.

Abuse ever begins where knowledge ends, it has been said....
 
There is a vast difference betwenen a genuine sceptic and a person who simply refuses to believe in possibility.
True scepticism is a part of agnotism " neither believe nor disbelieve " which allows for the truth if any to surface free from persectution by those determined to see it buried due to their own paranoia and misguided attempts to remove those con artists that vindicate their position.
 
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Sure, ESP and whatnot are possible, but I have no reason to accept claims that aren't supported by evidence. Give me a reason, go ahead, make my day(sorry, I had to).
 
Arioch said:
Sure, ESP and whatnot are possible, but I have no reason to accept claims that aren't supported by evidence. Give me a reason, go ahead, make my day(sorry, I had to).
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and thats the way it should be....be open to the evidence with out prejudice.
 
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