Science in Parapsychology

The ganzfeld/autoganzfeld data is simply untrustworthy.
You repeating your empty phrase that its untrustworthy doesn't mean it is. The Ganzfeld studies have never been falsified and have been claimed as legitimate experiments including a leading critic Hyman who was a member of csicop.

When a claim is made of something's existence, it or its effects have to be made instantiatiable, reproducible, and evident. That is how reality works.
This has occured with psi.

I don't want psi to be true? I would bet all humans do. Who wouldn't want psi abilities? psi is immensly attractive and cool. I think you have a hard time understanding that people can value truth over their own desires.

There is nothing immensly attractive and cool about people being able to get inside your head.
 
The ganzfeld studies were untrustworthy. As I asked previously, show the most convincing ganzfeld data here, along with the statistical tests used and the results gained, and perhaps I can show you why.
 
You repeating your empty phrase that its untrustworthy doesn't mean it is. The Ganzfeld studies have never been falsified and have been claimed as legitimate experiments including a leading critic Hyman who was a member of csicop.

As luck would have it, the scientific community agrees with me. The Ganzfeld studies don't have to be falsified because they have never been validated in the first place.

This has occured with psi.

And supporters of vampires, werewolves, and ghosts would argue the same. Show me the evidence. Lets see some real psi. Prove YOUR claim.


There is nothing immensly attractive and cool about people being able to get inside your head.

Yeah there is. Education would be transformed, misinterpretation would disappear, feedback would be effortless, etc. The resistance to people getting inside your head seems to be a common issue with schizophrenics. Existabrent would be a great example of such a person.
 
The ganzfeld studies were untrustworthy. As I asked previously, show the most convincing ganzfeld data here, along with the statistical tests used and the results gained, and perhaps I can show you why.

Skinwalker, could you at least point me in the direction of an article that shows why the ganzfeld studies can't be trusted. I've seen other sceptics post articles that claim to show the problems with the studies but the criticisms turn out to be pure speculation. I'm not inflexible on the Ganzfeld studies but I have yet to see anything beyond speculation about them. After the first round of testing Hyman (the CSICOP scientist) pointed out what he thought were methodological errors, they redid the studies in accordance with hymans criticism, and the results still came back positive and yman said the results looked legitimate.
 
As luck would have it, the scientific community agrees with me. The Ganzfeld studies don't have to be falsified because they have never been validated in the first place.
You have yet to produce any actual evidence that shows how the studies have been proven to not be valid. The only article you've posted was speculation by scientists that themselves did not sya the studies should be completely thrown out (as you seem to think). So, find something beyond speculation.


And supporters of vampires, werewolves, and ghosts would argue the same. Show me the evidence. Lets see some real psi. Prove YOUR claim.
Bullshit. Find me one serius study supporting the existence of vampires or werewolves, or ghosts.



Yeah there is. Education would be transformed, misinterpretation would disappear, feedback would be effortless, etc. The resistance to people getting inside your head seems to be a common issue with schizophrenics. Existabrent would be a great example of such a person.
First of all, if psi does exist its not the marvel comics version you seem to think it is. If it can be trained the level of training would rival that of an olympic athlete (most people can't even diet succesfully). So, it really wouldn't change anyones life unless they were willing to drop everything and become an ascetic (not high on most peoples priority list).
Beyond that, there are many negatives that would come with psi for the average human. Like no more lying. No more hiding your true feelings. Etc. The resistance to people getting inside your head is common to all people, schizophrenics seem to think that other people can do this, and they don't like, and neither would you.
 
First of all, if psi does exist its not the marvel comics version you seem to think it is. If it can be trained the level of training would rival that of an olympic athlete (most people can't even diet succesfully). So, it really wouldn't change anyones life unless they were willing to drop everything and become an ascetic (not high on most peoples priority list).
How do you know that is the case? Do you have an example of this or just speculation?


Beyond that, there are many negatives that would come with psi for the average human. Like no more lying. No more hiding your true feelings. Etc. The resistance to people getting inside your head is common to all people, schizophrenics seem to think that other people can do this, and they don't like, and neither would you.
The potential benefits for psi would far outweigh the negatives.

While people might be concerned that others can get into their heads you have to remember that they could also be one of the lucky ones who can get into other's heads. That would be pretty exciting.
 
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You have yet to produce any actual evidence that shows how the studies have been proven to not be valid. The only article you've posted was speculation by scientists that themselves did not sya the studies should be completely thrown out (as you seem to think). So, find something beyond speculation.

I have provided evidence on how the studies are untrustworthy. Also, Sarkus posted an auto-ganzfeld reproduction attempt that didn't produce significant results.


Bullshit. Find me one serius study supporting the existence of vampires or werewolves, or ghosts.

Well, seeing as I have a choice, here's one on ghosts:

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa093002a.htm

First of all, if psi does exist its not the marvel comics version you seem to think it is. If it can be trained the level of training would rival that of an olympic athlete (most people can't even diet succesfully). So, it really wouldn't change anyones life unless they were willing to drop everything and become an ascetic (not high on most peoples priority list).

You seem to have an awful lot of intimiate and factual knowledge about it.

Beyond that, there are many negatives that would come with psi for the average human. Like no more lying. No more hiding your true feelings. Etc. The resistance to people getting inside your head is common to all people, schizophrenics seem to think that other people can do this, and they don't like, and neither would you.

Oh no... honesty! Now that's a negative :rolleyes:
 
http://www.skepdic.com/ganzfeld.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-20749206.html

Any amount of research will throw up the highly debatable conclusions reached for the Ganzfeld / Autoganzfeld experiments.
The two above are just the first two links I tried when searching.

Sarkus, the first link is from a sceptics page so is it safe to assume that any bias they have would be against the reulsts right? Which is whats so intersting that the conlclusion they reach is: "We may be justified in having a very high confidence that when ganzfeld studies are done, receivers are likely to guess correctly a one-in-four target at significantly greater than chance odds."

The second study actually supports some of the results of the original ganzfelds as well: "The emotionally close subgroup in the replication that was expected to produce above-chance hitting on the basis of a review of the PRL data, did succeed in replicating this finding with a respectable hit rate of 37.5%. It is immediately apparent from Table 2 that within the EC group, the spouses were not in the same class as the parent/child and sibling pairs. This leads to the speculation that perhaps consanguinity may be important.(6) Combining the blood relatives yields 15 hits in 30 trials for a hit rate of 50% (ES[Pi] = .75, h = .52, z = 9.78, p = .006, two-tailed). While it is tempting to invoke genetics or some other aspect of the familial relationship as the key factor, observations of the actual experiment suggest that the picture may be more complex. Of all the participants in these experiments, the parent/child and the sibling pairs seemed to bring the greatest amount of enthusiasm to the experiment and derived the greatest level of satisfaction when hits were scored. These results certainly confirm the commonsense notion derived from spontaneous case reports that ESP is especially "good" amongst family members, but it will take much additional research to address the usual nature vs. nurture issues. Dalton (1997, p. 130) has recently reported an independent confirmation of the unusually high scoring amongst biologically related sender-receiver pairs in ganzfeld experiments. " Their conclusion:
"Although this project did not provide a straightforward replication of the PRL findings, several aspects of the data conform to findings from other studies and provide important indicators as to the many sources of variance that must be accounted for in the continuing quest to bring a higher level of reliability to ESP research. "
 
How do you know that is the case? Do you have an example of this or just speculation?
Well, I've never been arguing that the marvel comics version is the case or that there is evidence to support the marvel comics version. If you want to argue that the marvel comics version is accurate feel free.

The potential benefits for psi would far outweigh the negatives.

While people might be concerned that others can get into their heads you have to remember that they could also be one of the lucky ones who can get into other's heads. That would be pretty exciting.
Exciting? probably. Disturbing? probably. A double-edged sword? probably.
 
I have provided evidence on how the studies are untrustworthy. Also, Sarkus posted an auto-ganzfeld reproduction attempt that didn't produce significant results.
No you haven't.

Well, seeing as I have a choice, here's one on ghosts:

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa093002a.htm
Could be cold-reading could be something else. I've never looked into it that seriously.


Oh no... honesty! Now that's a negative :rolleyes:
If you don't think the average human would have to significantly change their lives if they couldn't lie anymore (even to spare someones feelings, like telling a woman those pants don't make her ass look big) you are even more out of touch with reality than I thought.
 
Well, I've never been arguing that the marvel comics version is the case or that there is evidence to support the marvel comics version. If you want to argue that the marvel comics version is accurate feel free.
I understand that you were trying to say that psi isn't going to be as powerful as it is in comics. My point was that you are making some statements regarding the nature of psi based on pure speculation.

"If it can be trained the level of training would rival that of an olympic athlete (most people can't even diet succesfully). So, it really wouldn't change anyones life unless they were willing to drop everything and become an ascetic (not high on most peoples priority list). "

You have no idea how much training would be needed or what effect it would have on someone's life.


Exciting? probably. Disturbing? probably. A double-edged sword? probably.
If a poll was conducted and millions were asked "Would you like psi to be real?", don't you think that the overwhelming majority would say yes?
 
Yeah. This is amazing. The entire thread was started with this post below, and I have been proved right.

I find it amazing that skeptics seem to love the Parapsychology Forum. It is obvious that whatever transpires during Telepathy, lucid dreaming, etc. that this Forum was created to discuss is not measureable at this time.

So it has become more of a PSI bashing Forum than anything else. Sites such as PSIPOG are beneficial in the fact that most users have an open mind, or have experienced things they cannot explain scientifically.

It would be interesting to see theories here, even remote hypothesis and perhaps one day suggestions on experiments to prove them.

Science cannot prove these things do not exist. The scientific method has always been used to prove a theory is true, when prior to the experiment it was simply an unproven idea. Re-creating these experiments to your class for educational purposes or an interest in science does not make someone a scientist.

Are we so bold as to assume we now know everything?

Ernst Haeckel once refered to a cell as "a simple little lump of albuminous combination of carbon". SIMPLE!

There are 100 trillion cells in your body (give or take a trillion), and none of them is SIMPLE. We now know that each cell contains huge data banks (chromosomes). Our cells have special enzymes that unzip these DNA strands. Then another set of enzymes separate the strands. Then another DNA reader comes along and copies out the chemical data into a strand. Then more enzymes come, put the DNA strand back together, and zip it back up into its spiral form. The chemical data or "messenger RNA" is then delivered to one end of the "Ribosome". It is a an organelle (factory)specializing in putting together proteins in a highly organized fashion based on the code now embedded in the messenger RNA. "transfer RNA molecules" carry amino acids ("bases" adenine,cytosine,thymine and guanine) to the Ribosome in a precise order creating a new protein.

So "a simple little lump of albuminous combination of carbon" is hardly an accurate description of a living cell. The DNA strands in each individual cell not only contain "instructions" for proteins and molecules, but contain the genetic codes for the organism in which it inhabits.

So science can move forward, but it requires forward thinkers. It is impossible to be a scientist without using your imagination and being open to possibilities, despite your unsubstantiated beliefs.

If anyone can prove that parapsychology is bogus, then try. The field is currently barred by limitations of current knowledge. Skepticism does serve its purpose if it is undeterministic, however if your mind is closed to the possibility then what purpose does it serve (besides graffiti) to even peruse the parapsychology forum?

There are NO claims there about PSI. This post simply put shows that a Forum designed for those of us who believe for whatever reasons we have, cannot function with the maturity level displayed by other sciforum members.

case closed.
 
No you haven't.

I did, I could even point it out to someone like Sarkus and he would be able to verify it. You've just got the blinders on.

Could be cold-reading could be something else. I've never looked into it that seriously.

The point was that I compared it to psi and you asked for the serious study done on it to even warrant it being in the same boat as psi. Naturally, it was provided.

If you don't think the average human would have to significantly change their lives if they couldn't lie anymore (even to spare someones feelings, like telling a woman those pants don't make her ass look big) you are even more out of touch with reality than I thought.

I guess the avarage would have to adapt as well as those so sensitive as to require appeasment.
 
I understand that you were trying to say that psi isn't going to be as powerful as it is in comics. My point was that you are making some statements regarding the nature of psi based on pure speculation.

"If it can be trained the level of training would rival that of an olympic athlete (most people can't even diet succesfully). So, it really wouldn't change anyones life unless they were willing to drop everything and become an ascetic (not high on most peoples priority list). "

You have no idea how much training would be needed or what effect it would have on someone's life.
I was basing this on my understanding from religous traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, (and even some Christian monastics) that say that psi develops in people who undertake monastic training. So it isn't pure speculation.

If a poll was conducted and millions were asked "Would you like psi to be real?", don't you think that the overwhelming majority would say yes?
Possibly.
 
I did, I could even point it out to someone like Sarkus and he would be able to verify it. You've just got the blinders on.
Then go ahead and point out the actual evidence. I'd be interested to see what an intellectually honest sceptic's take is.


The point was that I compared it to psi and you asked for the serious study done on it to even warrant it being in the same boat as psi. Naturally, it was provided.
What you posted wasn't about ghosts. It could just as easily be about telepathy.
 
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I was basing this on my understanding from religous traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, (and even some Christian monastics) that say that psi develops in people who undertake monastic training. So it isn't pure speculation.
.. and do you think these are reliable sources of information? Even if psi was shown to exist that wouldn't then validate all myths and legends of mental powers that could be seen as similar.

The first google defintion for speculation is - guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence. That could certainly fit here.
 
.. and do you think these are reliable sources of information? Even if psi was shown to exist that wouldn't then validate all myths and legends of mental powers that could be seen as similar.
Reliable? that's a subjective term. Scientific evidence? Definitely not. I was just telling you where I am basing my opinion on

The first google defintion for speculation is - guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence. That could certainly fit here.[/QUOTE]

First of all Shaman I said "if it can be trained." I thought I was making it clear that I wasn't try to express a scientific fact. Second of all my main point was that I am not arguing for the marvel comics book version of psi. If you want to argue agianst that version argue with someone that believes that, otherwise it is a strawman argument as far as I'm concerned.

Lastly, dismissing everything as mere speculation that hasn't been proved in a laboratory seems a little naive to me. Lets just get rid of sociology, history, etc. if that's the case. All contemplative religous traditions do say that if one undertakes serious intense ascetic training - like meditating 12 - 16 hours a day they will develop psi abilities. I am merely pointing out what the traditions that claim the existence of psi say the nature of training it is. Its not speculation so much as comparative religion. I didn't say you should believe it or present it as scientific evidence.
 
Reliable? that's a subjective term. Scientific evidence? Definitely not. I was just telling you where I am basing my opinion on
First of all Shaman I said "if it can be trained." I thought I was making it clear that I wasn't try to express a scientific fact.
There was a still a claim even though you had an if at the start of the sentence. Perhaps you could have thrown in "i think" or "I am of the opinion" or something.

Second of all my main point was that I am not arguing for the marvel comics book version of psi. If you want to argue agianst that version argue with someone that believes that, otherwise it is a strawman argument as far as I'm concerned.
I have already explained that I understand this. I just wanted you to see my point. You went from closely examining the results of fairly rigorous psi testing to just making a claim based on dogma. It was a huge leap.

Lastly, dismissing everything as mere speculation that hasn't been proved in a laboratory seems a little naive to me. Lets just get rid of sociology, history, etc. if that's the case.
Well that is stupid and not what I was doing. This is really a non issue though as I understand your intention now.
 
Then go ahead and point out the actual evidence. I'd be interested to see what an intellectually honest sceptic's take is.

Here is the excerpt from the experiment. Notice the bold-faced phrases. They show that the experimenter, receiver, and sender were not deprived of sensory input from each other. Now take into account the knowns that people WANT psi to be real so bad that they are willing to deceive each other.

Feel free to choose your 'intellectually honest' skeptic.

METHOD

The basic design of the autoganzfeld studies was the same as that described earlier [Footnote 4]: A receiver and sender were sequestered in separate, acoustically-isolated chambers. After a 14-minute period of progressive relaxation, the receiver underwent ganzfeld stimulation while describing his or her thoughts and images aloud for 30 minutes. Meanwhile, the sender concentrated on a randomly selected target. At the end of the ganzfeld period, the receiver was shown four stimuli and, without knowing which of the four had been the target, rated each stimulus for its similarity to his or her mentation during the ganzfeld.
The targets consisted of 80 still pictures (static targets) and 80 short video segments complete with soundtracks (dynamic targets), all recorded on videocassette. The static targets included art prints, photographs, and magazine advertisements; the dynamic targets included excerpts of approximately one minute duration from motion pictures, TV shows, and cartoons. The 160 targets were arranged in judging sets of four static or four dynamic targets each, constructed to minimize similarities among targets within a set.


TARGET SELECTION AND PRESENTATION

The VCR containing the taped targets was interfaced to the controlling computer, which selected the target and controlled its repeated presentation to the sender during the ganzfeld period, thus eliminating the need for a second experimenter to accompany the sender. After the ganzfeld period, the computer randomly sequenced the four-clip judging set and presented it to the receiver on a TV monitor for judging. The receiver used a computer game paddle to make his or her ratings on a 40-point scale that appeared on the TV monitor after each clip was shown. The receiver was permitted to see each clip and to change the ratings repeatedly until he or she was satisfied. The computer then wrote these and other data from the session into a file on a floppy disk. At that point, the sender moved to the receiver's chamber and revealed the identity of the target to both the receiver and the experimenter. Note that the experimenter did not even know the identity of the four-clip judging set until it was displayed to the receiver for judging.

RANDOMIZATION

The random selection of the target and sequencing of the judging set were controlled by a noise-based random number generator interfaced to the computer. Extensive testing confirmed that the generator was providing a uniform distribution of values throughout the full target range (1-160). Tests on the actual frequencies observed during the experiments confirmed that targets were, on average, selected uniformly from among the 4 clips within each judging set and that the 4 judging sequences used were uniformly distributed across sessions.

ADDITIONAL CONTROL FEATURES

The receiver's and sender's rooms were sound-isolated, electrically shielded chambers with single- door access that could be continuously monitored by the experimenter. There was two-way intercom communication between the experimenter and the receiver but only one-way communication into the sender's room; thus, neither the experimenter nor the receiver could monitor events inside the sender's room. The archival record for each session includes an audiotape containing the receiver's mentation during the ganzfeld period and all verbal exchanges between the experimenter and the receiver throughout the experiment.
The automated ganzfeld protocol has been examined by several dozen parapsychologists and behavioral researchers from other fields, including well-known critics of parapsychology. Many have participated as subjects or observers. All have expressed satisfaction with the handling of security issues and controls.


What you posted wasn't about ghosts. It could just as easily be about telepathy.

From:

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa093002a.htm

"...chronicles a series of laboratory experiments conducted with a group of well-known mediums - including John Edward - to see if their claims of contact with "the other side" could be scientifically measured and documented..."

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosts

"..."ghost" may also refer to the spirit or soul of a deceased person, or to any spirit or demon..."
 
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