Science and Islam in Conflict

[S.A.M.]

Umm, Adam and Eve vs. evolution?
As already mentioned in this thread.

No conflict about that in the Qur'an, however, there are several Muslims more well versed in Western creationist theories than in the Qur'an.

 

[(Q)]

"The first experimental scientific method was developed by Muslim scientists, who introduced the use of experimentation and quantification to distinguish between competing scientific theories set within a generally empirical orientation, which emerged with Alhacen's optical experiments in his Book of Optics (1021).[28][29]"

The modern scientific method does have its basis in the one developed by Muslim scientists.

After conquering the Persian and Roman empires, Muslims inherited (stole) their knowledge and skills and placed the stamp of Islam on them. Had that not occurred, science might have taken a much greater leap in a shorter period of time.

Hail the conquering heroes!

 

[S.A.M.]

After conquering the Persian and Roman empires, Muslims inherited (stole) their knowledge and skills and placed the stamp of Islam on them. Had that not occurred, science might have taken a much greater leap in a shorter period of time.

Hail the conquering heroes!

huh? The Persians had been involved in 700 years of war with the Romans before the advent of Islam. After the arrival of Islam, they all focused on collecting and assimilating the knowledge of the known world instead. That is why instead of military camps, universities were established and scholarships handed out. Hospitals were fashioned in the way they are today. The current university system (stratified specialisations) and the medical profession as it is followed today followed from the Muslims.

You may of course, continue to wallow in bias, but all this is history.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Link&db=PubMed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=16410601

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_15.html

 

[(Q)]

huh? The Persians had been involved in 700 years of war with the Romans before the advent of Islam. After the arrival of Islam, they all focused on collecting and assimilating the knowledge of the known world instead. That is why instead of military camps, universities were established and scholarships handed out. Hospitals were fashioned in the way they are today.

You may of course, continue to wallow in bias, but all this is history.

The bias is in the way Muslims make specious claims to science and the history reveals that. The concepts were stolen by Muslims, not created. History reveals that too.

 

[S.A.M.]

The references have been given, informing yourself is your concern not mine.

 

[(Q)]

You may of course, continue to wallow in bias, but all this is history.

You may also wallow in the bias of your religious indoctrination.

The only science, most deserving of Muslim ingenuity, is that of the splitting of the moon.

Now THAT was an amazing feat!

 

[(Q)]

The references have been given, informing yourself is your concern not mine.

The references merely back my point. Muslims conquered and murdered, then stole it all and made it their own.

In fact, the Quran promotes that concept, spoils of war...

 

[S.A.M.]

You may also wallow in the bias of your religious indoctrination.

The only science, most deserving of Muslim ingenuity, is that of the splitting of the moon.

Now THAT was an amazing feat!

Yeah, I wonder what exactly it was they saw. Did you know the mosque built by the companions of that king is older than the mosque in Mecca? After the Prophets mosque in Medina, it is the oldest mosque in the world.

Ain't that awesome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juma_Masjid,_Palayam

 

[Kadark]

The bias is in the way Muslims make specious claims to science and the history reveals that. The concepts were stolen by Muslims, not created. History reveals that too.

Instead of making baseless postulations, feel free to include this "historical evidence" you so unequivocally speak of, because as of yet, you've nothing but specious assertions.

Indulge yourself within the multitudinous work of scholars worldwide, many non-Muslim, who have rightfully given credence to Muslim scientists for modern experimental methods and other unparalleled discoveries.

 

[(Q)]

"Allah explains the spoils of war in detail, as He has specifically allowed it for this honorable Ummah over all others. We should mention that the `Ghanimah' refers to war spoils captured from the disbelievers, using armies and instruments of war."

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1542&Itemid=63

"Though Edis, unlike some other commentators, speaks respectfully about Islam, this requires a certain indifference to the elephant in the room -- Islam has not contributed anything to modern science.

It contributed to medieval science, but that was a different animal. Edis writes, "When European science began to take off, education and intellectual life in Muslim lands was completely dominated by orthodox scholars and sufi saints, neither of whom encouraged attention to knowledge that did not have any explicit religious purpose."

The political collapse of Islam in front of expanding Europe (and even expanding but not very modern Russia) forced a reassessment. Edis traces the different approaches various Muslims have taken in trying to tap the obvious advantages of modern thought without abandoning the social harmony on which Islam prides itself. A number of Islamic schools of thought have thought that it could be done.

Edis, correctly, considers these all to have been failures -- illusions of harmony."

http://www.amazon.com/Illusion-Harmony-Science-Religion-Islam/dp/1591024498

 

[S.A.M.]

The spoils of war belong to the people that fight the war, but the war should be a jihad (ie a righteous war).

Hmm yes, obviously something that is deeply disturbing.

The rest is just an opinion piece; interesting but just that.

 

[(Q)]

The spoils of war belong to the people that fight the war, but the war should be a jihad (ie a righteous war).

Hmm yes, obviously something that is deeply disturbing.

The rest is just an opinion piece; interesting but just that.

Of course, anything questioning or criticizing Islam is merely opinion.

So, the spoils of war, or in this case, conquest of other nations and peoples resulted in the Muslim state taking over any and all ideas and concepts of those they conquered and labeling them their own.

 

[S.A.M.]

Of course, anything questioning or criticizing Islam is merely opinion.

So, the spoils of war, or in this case, conquest of other nations and peoples resulted in the Muslim state taking over any and all ideas and concepts of those they conquered and labeling them their own.

hehe, thats a good stretch. So, all the stuff stolen by the Muslims has no attribution then? No one knows where or who they got it from? They took complete credit for all their stolen spoils and presented them as their own, original work?

So they went to Europe and stole the Greek and Roman works, went to China and stole their knowledge and went to India and stole the zero. All in war, of course.

 

[S.A.M.]

Following which they put all the spoils (including the zero) in a big pile, set aside a fifth for religious and charitable purposes and then divided the rest equally among all the people. Aha! Hence the universities and hospitals to dispense the spoils more equitably. Makes sense.

 

[(Q)]

Conquerer: "Accept Islam or die!"
Scholar: "Ok, I'll accept Islam."
Conquerer: "Allah be praised, you are now a Muslim scientist!"
Scholar: "What about the works of my forefathers?"
Conquerer: "Those are now the spoils of war for which you must exchange for peace!"
Scholar: "We were not at war, you conquered us."

"The Islamic conquest of Persia (633–651) led to the end of the Sassanid Empire and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion in Persia. However, the achievements of the previous Persian civilizations were not lost, but were to a great extent absorbed by the new Islamic polity.

Under Umar and his immediate successors, the Arab conquerors attempted to maintain their political and cultural cohesion despite the attractions of the civilizations they had conquered.

Muhammad, the Islamic prophet, had made it clear that the "People of the Book", Jews and Christians, were to be tolerated so long as they submitted to Muslim rule.

By the late 10th century, the majority of Persians had become Muslim, at least nominally. Most Persian Muslims were Sunni Muslims.

According to Tarikh-i Bukhara "The residents of Bukhara became Muslims. But they renounced [Islam] each time the Arabs turned back. Qutayba b. Muslim made them Muslim three times, [but] they renounced [Islam] again and became nonbelievers. The fourth time, Qutayba waged war, seized the city, and established Islam after considerable strife….They espoused Islam overtly but practiced idolatry in secret."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Conquest_of_Iran

 

[(Q)]

Following which they put all the spoils (including the zero) in a big pile, set aside a fifth for religious and charitable purposes and then divided the rest equally among all the people. Aha! Hence the universities and hospitals to dispense the spoils more equitably. Makes sense.

It makes sense to conquer, pillage, loot and steal... to dispense more equitably?

 

[S.A.M.]

It makes sense to conquer, pillage, loot and steal... to dispense more equitably?

The spoils remember? The SPOILS!!!

I'm sure you are acquainted with the major thieves that stole all this knowledge. Could you give me say, ONE name? Of a warmongering scholar who went to war for books? And what he stole? Ibn Batuta perhaps? Ibn Khaldun, hmm?

 

[S.A.M.]

Conquerer: "Accept Islam or die!"
Scholar: "Ok, I'll accept Islam."
Conquerer: "Allah be praised, you are now a Muslim scientist!"
Scholar: "What about the works of my forefathers?"
Conquerer: "Those are now the spoils of war for which you must exchange for peace!"
Scholar: "We were not at war, you conquered us."

"The Islamic conquest of Persia (633–651) led to the end of the Sassanid Empire and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion in Persia. However, the achievements of the previous Persian civilizations were not lost, but were to a great extent absorbed by the new Islamic polity.

Under Umar and his immediate successors, the Arab conquerors attempted to maintain their political and cultural cohesion despite the attractions of the civilizations they had conquered.

Muhammad, the Islamic prophet, had made it clear that the "People of the Book", Jews and Christians, were to be tolerated so long as they submitted to Muslim rule.

By the late 10th century, the majority of Persians had become Muslim, at least nominally. Most Persian Muslims were Sunni Muslims.

According to Tarikh-i Bukhara "The residents of Bukhara became Muslims. But they renounced [Islam] each time the Arabs turned back. Qutayba b. Muslim made them Muslim three times, [but] they renounced [Islam] again and became nonbelievers. The fourth time, Qutayba waged war, seized the city, and established Islam after considerable strife….They espoused Islam overtly but practiced idolatry in secret."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Conquest_of_Iran

Hmm so while they stayed in tents on the outskirts of Persia, and as they ruled from Mecca, the Arabs, (who strictly avoided reading the Persian literature or books, or marrying them) became enamoured of the er, spoils, which they enacted by appointing a Persian in charge of dispensing governance. Ah, makes sense.

The Arabs were particularly underestimated; the Persians gave more credence to the threat from raiding groups from the east than to the Arabs, possibly due to the Persian victory in southern Arabia that helped the Sassanids maintain control of the Red Sea trading route in the early 6th century. By the time of the invasion, however, the Arabs were able to take advantage of Persian weaknesses, such as disunity among the provinces and a lack of allegiance among the people to the Sassanid central administration. Many Persians submitted to the invaders when the Arabs demanded less taxes than the Sassanids had, and did not force conversion to Islam. Later, Islam did spread to non-Arab groups, most notably the Persians, who began to convert in significant numbers as Islamic rule over Persia strengthened in the centuries after the initial conquest. However, the Sassanid Empire played a major role in developing a distinct Persian nationalism, which survived the Islamic conquest and mass conversion of Persians to Islam. The Persians and the Arabs would become the leading ethnic groups in the Islamic world, and each soon realised that their cooperation was fundamental to the survival of the empire.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/beginnings/sassanid.html

And of course:

Moreover, the Muslims offered relative religious tolerance and fair treatment to populations that accepted Islamic rule without resistance. It was not until around 650, however, that resistance in Iran was quelled. Conversion to Islam, which offered certain advantages, was fairly rapid among the urban population but slower among the peasantry and the dihqans [farmers]. The majority of Iranians did not become Muslim until the ninth century.

Although the conquerors, especially the Umayyads (the Muslim rulers who succeeded Mohammad from 661-750), tended to stress the primacy of Arabs among Muslims, the Iranians were gradually integrated into the new community. The Muslim conquerors adopted the Sassanid coinage system and many Sassanid administrative practices, including the office of vizier, or minister, and the divan, a bureau or register for controlling state revenue and expenditure that became a characteristic of administration throughout Muslim lands. Later caliphs adopted Iranian court ceremonial practices and the trappings of Sassanid monarchy. Men of Iranian origin served as administrators after the conquest, and Iranians contributed significantly to all branches of Islamic learning, including philology, literature, history, geography, jurisprudence, philosophy, medicine, and the sciences.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/islamic_conquest/islamic_conquest.php

 

[(Q)]

"Later, Islam did spread to non-Arab groups, most notably the Persians, who began to convert in significant numbers as Islamic rule over Persia strengthened in the centuries after the initial conquest."

"Moreover, the Muslims offered relative religious tolerance and fair treatment to populations that accepted Islamic rule without resistance."

This is your evidence? :shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

"Later, Islam did spread to non-Arab groups, most notably the Persians, who began to convert in significant numbers as Islamic rule over Persia strengthened in the centuries after the initial conquest."

"Moreover, the Muslims offered relative religious tolerance and fair treatment to populations that accepted Islamic rule without resistance."

This is your evidence? :shrug:

Sure, how is it different from modern governance?

People still throw insurgents and terrorists in jail. See the time frame. And the administrators were local Persians.