Science and Islam in Conflict

[S.A.M.]

Hey, if you want to talk about Saudi Arabia, then let's start a new thread. Not a unique phenomenon; and yet, not my chosen form of government either.

Saudi Arabian economy was set up by the Americans.

No. All gone. Tiny remnant remaining. Extirpated culture. Iraq, Persia, the lot. I think it started back in the 700s when the Christians were invaded by muslims from Saudi Arabia. It sort of kept on for a while, which is what the Crusades were about - reconquest.

So how many of them unknown minorities outside the Middle East? And there are still Assyrians in Iraq, though I doubt they will survive this war; strange that, they survived Saddam.

 

[(Q)]

Sam, you should get the Red Herring award for using the largest amount of logical fallacies in one thread.

Truly amazing.:worship:

 

[S.A.M.]

That's going to be a hard one. There doesn't seem to have been any recognition whatsoever of the point that the evolutionist in the article above refused any conception of evolution that actually involved descent with modification.

From what I read on him:

Author, newspaper columnist, and television personality El-*Naggar is also a geologist whom many Egyptians, including a number of his fellow scientists, regard as a leading figure in their community.

If he is documenting any science that is not empirical or experimental, I would like to know it. If not, he is welcome to his beliefs. I have heard Francis Collins tell me how the cross section of DNA looks like the rose window in some church. But it does not detract from the nature of his work.

This is something atheists appear to be in the dark about. A man can have many beliefs and still be true to his work; he'll just have an additional perspective you won't.

I walk the campus of Cairo University prior to meeting Waheed Badawy, a chemistry professor who has taught there since 1967. His students, male and female, wander in and out during our talk; the women all wear head covers, highlighting the degree to which religion is particularly strong among the young. He wears a white lab coat, and there are religious verses posted on his laboratory walls and corkboard. Yet Badawy, who specialized in solar energy conversion while working for Siemens in Germany in the 1980s, does not consider himself an “Islamic scientist” like El-Naggar. He is a scientist who happens to be devout, one who sees science and religion as discrete pursuits.

“Islam has no problems with science,” he says. “As long as what you do does not harm people, it is permitted. You can study what you want, you can say what you want.”

Personally, I'd have no trouble criticizing a "Christian scientist". Why is this leap so hard for those in islam? Surrender of the will means surrender of the mind?

How about an atheist scientist? Dawkins, for instance?

 

[GeoffP]

Saudi Arabian economy was set up by the Americans.

Yeees, and used by the Saudis. Two to tango, n'est-ce-pas?

So how many of them unknown minorities outside the Middle East?

Some, here and there: the Sami, the wierd archo-Dutch German speakers near Flemland or Flemville or wherever it is, the Geordies, Welsh, etc etc. I don't support oppressing them either, in case you hadn't noticed; ethnic/cultural genocide is kind of a bad thing, no?

And there are still Assyrians in Iraq, though I doubt they will survive this war; strange that, they survived Saddam.

Yes; curious how Saddam was able to bottle up omnipresent religious hostilities, eh? Well...not hostilities, apparently. Just the one hostility.

If he is documenting any science that is not empirical or experimental, I would like to know it. If not, he is welcome to his beliefs. I have heard Francis Collins tell me how the cross section of DNA looks like the rose window in some church. But it does not detract from the nature of his work.

This is something atheists appear to be in the dark about. A man can have many beliefs and still be true to his work; he'll just have an additional perspective you won't.

That's fine and dandy, but if you don't toe the line, you're "marginalized, then out", according to the Turkish fellow. He might well be laissez-faire about it indeed when his POV is protected.

How about an atheist scientist? Dawkins, for instance?

Yup. I generally agree with him, but I have no problems criticizing him. I just criticized the hell out of Nei and Tajima in a meeting for their stupid dN/dS ratio. Anyway, you have a specific point you wish to debate on Dawkins other than his fronting?

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeees, and used by the Saudis. Two to tango, n'est-ce-pas?

Sure, which multinational corporations are the Sauds setting up in the third World?

Some, here and there: the Sami, the wierd archo-Dutch German speakers near Flemland or Flemville or wherever it is, the Geordies, Welsh, etc etc. I don't support oppressing them either, in case you hadn't noticed; ethnic/cultural genocide is kind of a bad thing, no?

All Christians I take it?

Yes; curious how Saddam was able to bottle up omnipresent religious hostilities, eh? Well...not hostilities, apparently. Just the one hostility.

Yes, isn't it? The American on the other hand...

That's fine and dandy, but if you don't toe the line, you're "marginalized, then out", according to the Turkish fellow. He might well be laissez-faire about it indeed when his POV is protected.

according to the Turkish fellow. Do all Turkish fellows say that?

Yup. I generally agree with him, but I have no problems criticizing him. I just criticized the hell out of Nei and Tajima in a meeting for their stupid dN/dS ratio. Anyway, you have a specific point you wish to debate on Dawkins other than his fronting?

None that haven't been covered extensively already. I noticed how you approached the dialogue on Hitchens too. Guess you generally find yourself in agreement with atheists.

 

[GeoffP]

Sure, which multinational corporations are the Sauds setting up in the third World?

When you sit on gold-plated toilet seats, America and the West are the Third World.

All Christians I take it?

I assumed you wanted Western examples, but my position is that no minority should be extirpated, period.

according to the Turkish fellow. Do all Turkish fellows say that?

Couldn't tell you; but it seems likely to me. Saudi Arabia and Sudan have banned evolution (which produces an ironic giggle in me); it's not off the radar scope.

None that haven't been covered extensively already. I noticed how you approached the dialogue on Hitchens too. Guess you generally find yourself in agreement with atheists.

I find myself in agreement and disagreement with a lot of people, Sam, atheists included on both counts.

 

[S.A.M.]

When you sit on gold-plated toilet seats, America and the West are the Third World.

You've been cleaning their toilets?

I assumed you wanted Western examples, but my position is that no minority should be extirpated, period.

So is mine; which is why it seems odd to me that the Coptics, Assyrians and what have you all seem to have gravitated to the Muslim countries; why do you suppose that is?

Couldn't tell you; but it seems likely to me. Saudi Arabia and Sudan have banned evolution (which produces an ironic giggle in me); it's not off the radar scope.

They also heavily sponsor students studying abroad.
And Sudan implemented all these laws after 1970 (like Iran); again why do think that is so?

I find myself in agreement and disagreement with a lot of people, Sam, atheists included on both counts.

Yeah, right!

 

[Michael]

Huh? What about it Before Christianity, Europe had no culture beyond what you'd find in a warring community dedicated to plunder.

Are you excluding Greeks and Italians as Europeans?

 

[Michael]

Many Churches themselves were transformed Greek and Roman Temples. The Architecture of the ancients, given where they were coming from, is much better. The Architectural concepts expressed in the Acropolis are remarkable. The whole Temple was built simply to be viewed as perfection.

 

[S.A.M.]

Are you excluding Greeks and Italians as Europeans?

No I'm comparing them to what they followed.

The Greeks were far far behind the Egyptians and Sumerians, not to mention the Incas and Mayans. They were also a plundering community.

 

[S.A.M.]

Many Churches themselves were transformed Greek and Roman Temples. The Architecture of the ancients, given where they were coming from, is much better. The Architectural concepts expressed in the Acropolis are remarkable. The whole Temple was built simply to be viewed as perfection.

Art is subjective. There were temples in India with better architecture before the Greeks designed their Parthenon. Whats to say they did not get their ideas from existing cultures?

The Pyramids on the other hand...

No, I personally believe the Europeans would have continued to live with hay on their floors and with no personal hygiene, if they had not moved beyond the barbarism of the European cultures.

 

[Michael]

Yes, the Greeks were paid mercenaries of the Egyptians. That's where they learned so sculpt and build. Their writing was copied from Crete - one of the 5 cradles of civilization. The Egyptians were a great and civilized people Still the Ancient Greeks went further than the Egyptians. The Egyptians had a vested interest in having little to no change - regularity was the key and it was burnt into their psyche. Flooding of the Nile - - year after year, millennium after millennium. The Greeks continued where the Egyptians stopped and progressed much further.

 

[Michael]

Did you know there is a whole style of Ancient Greek sculptures of Buddha? They certainly appreciated Indian learning and philosophy.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yup like I said, there is no way of knowing how much of it was their own. Besides any community that has more slaves than free people in the population, must have a lot of contribution from the slaves.

 

[Michael]

That true - most Greek city states had more slaves than citizens. Same with Rome.

Although it's interesting that in Rome women could work most any job men could work. Like carpentry etc.. and even aristocracy, if the husbadn died, had full legal control of their house an money.

Had these societies made the leap to banning Slavery I am positive that the Industrial revolution would have happened about 2000 years earlier.

 

[S.A.M.]

Heh, the Romans could be sold into slavery if they did not register for the census. But I doubt that they would have had the individualistic nature necessary for that level of personal satisfaction. Romans were intricately tied to family for identity. They had an entirely different social structure.

 

[GeoffP]

You've been cleaning their toilets?

No, liberating them.

So is mine; which is why it seems odd to me that the Coptics, Assyrians and what have you all seem to have gravitated to the Muslim countries; why do you suppose that is?

"Gravitated" as in "lived there previously and were overrun by invading muslim armies"? As in "home and native soil"? "Gravitated" as in "didn't want to abandon their homes and language to live somewhere else"? Or were prevented from escaping in order to preserve the tax base? That kind of "gravitated"? As in referring to an omnipresent, inescapable and remorseless physical pressure.

They also heavily sponsor students studying abroad.
And Sudan implemented all these laws after 1970 (like Iran); again why do think that is so?

Because they hadn't heard of it until then, probably. Not on their radar. It's like any steps in liberation; you take a step and then the reactionaries counteract it. But reactionaries are almost never pre-emptive, frankly.

Yeah, right!

No, no: you're right, Sam - I agree with any ol' atheist who crosses my path; like, say, mountainhare, or hypewaders or, heck, anyone. Especially when they want to destroy your precious little superstitions! That's just the way we obstinates roll, you know. Never mind that I've repeatedly stated my support for freedom of religion (which, by the by, includes apostacy ) time and again; heck, don't trouble yourself about that. If the facts are against you, it's the cad's defense to be ignorant of them. It must be blissful for you.