Yes, but one side was probably on the clock - iow being paid - while voicing opinions.
Or to put it another way. One side was simply living - too simply for some - while other took an official position. I think the latter deserve to be mocked more.
School bans 'slovenly' mothers from wearing pyjamas when they drop their children off
- Thread starter Brian Foley
- Start date
Yes, but one side was probably on the clock - iow being paid - while voicing opinions.
Or to put it another way. One side was simply living - too simply for some - while other took an official position. I think the latter deserve to be mocked more.
Best thing is for people to mind their business and not worry about how other people dress.
people should use common sense for formal occasions or in a business setting but other than that i dress the way i want to. does not mean that people will see me the same as if i dropped th kid off in a suit and tie rather than dirty jeans. human nature is that people will see you differently but who am i to argue with human nature?
Pajamas and house-slippers as a bulwark against mindless conformity? Really? Has the cultural revolution of the 50's and 60's boiled down to the statement "I don't give a shit?"
This is exactly what I don't get. I'm all for combating mindless conformity (though I'm more concerned with thought and behavior than dresscodes). Alternative, rebellious fashion choices amongst the young I understand and applaud, but I fail to see how this is anything but laziness and a general disregard for society. To interpret and defend this as individualism confounds me.
You missed my point. Change doesn't bother me. It is necessary and inevitable. But conservatism provides an important social function as well.
This particular event is laughable but that makes it easy to discuss some interesting phenomena without getting too caught up in the import of the events. I find the reactions fascinating.
The part that bothers me is the apparent elevation of the individual above society. The individual's preference valued as some misguided notion of "freedom" to be defended against any broader social interest. Even this I might condone if there seemed to be a point to it. But much of the time, as with this situation, it seems merely to be a knee-jerk reaction with no merit or meaning.
What exactly is the benefit to the individual or society of not having dresscodes?
~Raithere
rebellion? here is a question i have asked over and over again and had ignored, concidering we fought a WAR over the burka why shouldnt i be able to go ANYWHERE BUT NAKED?
So when the young people were doing this exact same thing about ~7 years ago it's worthy of applause but when they're parents do it it's laziness? Well actually it was worse sense the young people actually came to school and attended interviews dressed in pajama pants and slippers. Tackiness in situations where you must socialize with others in public should never be applauded no matter who starts the trend.
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
You seem to misunderstand individualism. Individualism is not "standing up to society" or "a conscious effort to make a Statement". Individualism is the right of the individual to make their own choices free of arbitrary constraints of society. Sometimes that will lead to a conscious statement being made to oppose the societal norm. Sometimes the individualist will make a very banal choice that society just doesn't happen to agree with, but no "statement" will be intended. There need be no particular message, and laziness can be individualistic if the norm discourages people from being lazy. (That said, "lazy" is a value-laden judgment, and that value judgment is itself arvitrary. One might just as well call their choice of dress "practical" because it was so very convenient and comfortable for them).
Many individualists aren't striving for "revolution." in fact, those who are are often conforming to their own subculture, and to a very well entrenched western desire to thumb their noses at the "establishment." In doing so they prove themselves not to be individualists at all, but just as conformist as the people they struggle against--just a slightly different flavor of conformist.
The perfect individualist would simply do what he or she wants to do, free of the influence of outside pressures on what that might be. There is nothing more to it than that.
I needn't abstract that to absurdity to demonstrate there is clearly a breaking point, where you yourself would no longer agree with your own statement.
See, you said the word 'society' which is the company of others. That I'm afraid does come with constraints. You are 'free' to do whatever you want when alone, but your rights end where another's begin, that is society.
Now, meeting in the middle, between authoritarian and libertarian philosophies is always going to be contentious. But simply, in this case, where no freedoms are lost, why can't these lazy fukkn chavs get dressed on a morning?
The legislation of taste is an intrusion and disrespectful. It likely leads to at best inadvertant racism or culturalism - the respected daytime clothes of some cultures remind me of pajamas and I certainly do not want them being told they can not wear these clothes in public. Individuals get to test their freedom without harming others. Having rules about dresscodes is a not taking responsibility by those who instead of expressing their opinions and communicating to other citizens, seek to control them anonymously.
Both fascism and communism have set up open and more discretely enforced dress codes. It is part of the same mentality. My view of things must be lived by others, even if I cannot show the causal chain through which their difference does me harm. I cannot tolerate difference.
The benefit of this to the individual and to the society is the lack of this mentality getting official approval and enforcement.
A question these people should be asked, instead of other people speculating and assuming their superiority. Further, why cant you and others who find it unpleasant simply deal with your emotions and reactions? Express yourselves or not, but deal. I fucking hate corporate outfits. I hate heavy metal t-shirts. I hate hair styles that do not move in the wind and too much make up on either sex. I hate certain combinations of colors. If I see a nun in full habit, it bugs me. I cant for the life of me see why my irritation and my presumptions about how they should dress leads to some rule. I mean, certainly not before some larger dialogue, where people communicate with those they wish to control and they listen to them.
What rule? There is no rule. From the article linked in the OP, a quote from the Headmaster of the school in question;
"While it is not my position to insist on what people wear, or don't, I feel that arriving at the school in pyjamas is disrespectful to the school and a bad example to set to children."
He has not made a rule. There is no rule. Got that? The headline says 'banned' but that a tabloid headline for you. 'Banned' is fewer syllables than 'disapproves of', and appeals to the readership, therefore.
All we are doing here therefore is discussing our opinions of lazy unemployed chavs who cannot be bothered to get dressed in the morning. People who sponge off state benefits, do not go looking for work, and and show contempt for the other parents that DO get dressed and go to work.
aganistan? ie the arguments were that being forced to cover up is a volation of women's rights
Yes. It's a part of their psychological and social development. I applaud children for performing basic social graces as well, from adults I expect them. And when I see adults acting and whining like children I tend to admonish them as such.
This merely sounds foolish. But then that's how these lessons are learned. I'm always amused when people expect the world to conform to their ideologies. I imagine that quite a few children learned a valuable lesson that day. Once again though, this is behavior I expect from children who are sill learning... not adults.
~Raithere
I do not misunderstand this take on individualism. I disagree with the value assigned to it. Which has been my point. A society of so called "perfect individualists" is no longer a society.Pandaemoni said:
In fact, one of the interesting things about this case is that what we are seeing here is actually a fragmentation of society. Or, more likely, there is already a division and this issue just highlights it.
I needn't say more at this time because I fully agree with phlogistician:
I would never advocate such legislation. I tend to be strongly libertarian when it comes the governance of social mores. The less governmental intrusion the better.Doreen said:
I believe that people have the right to control what goes on in their own house, so to speak. So if a private school or indeed any private establishment wishes to enforce a dress code for anyone entering their premises I advocate their right to do so. Public property is a different matter as it belongs to everyone.Doreen said:
I'm quite certain this is not why we went to war. But regardless, I support your right to run around naked if you so wish. But I also support the school board's right to prevent you from entering the school grounds sans wardrobe. Just stick to the public beaches and all should be well.
~Raithere
P.S. I really am interested to know, if someone can tell me, why no one seems to take the school-bus anymore. Did the schools cut funding? Do parents feel that buses are too dangerous? Do their kids not have shoes either?
I would think in this environmentally conscious age we live in that driving would be frowned upon and public transportation advocated.
Not to mention it would avoid the whole getting dressed situation. I believe in every mother or father's right to stand at their front door in their pajamas or boxer shorts, beer in hand, and wave as the kids run to catch the bus.
nope, its illegal on most beaches (infact there is a thread somewhere around here about one guy was charged with public indecency because he was walking around naked IN HIS OWN HOUSE but because the blinds wernt drawn he was charged). Further more most schools around here have no onsite parking or if there is its limited to students (who pay for a permit) and teachers. There for parents picking up and dropping off are doing it on a PUBLIC ROAD
I could have sworn 18-23 year olds were considered adults, but okay whatever. And what lessons did they learn? They kept coming back to school dressed like that everyday. They only stopped when the fashion trend died, I was only a young teen at the time and even I thought the style was beyond tacky. It still is tacky, whether 7 year olds, 15 year olds, 30 year olds, or 50 year olds dress like that.
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
First, everyone doing what they want is not necessarily the end of society, so long as what they want is peaceable and not likely to lead to a splintering of society. Wearing pajamas is certainly not going to do that.
Society will, somehow, survive the scourge of pajamas. Soldier on, buddy, as frightening as you may find pajama clad women, anarchy will not result. Trust me.
The truly frightening fragmentation will come when the stick up your ass shatters, given how rigid it is. It has to be like glass, given that you see this as a sign of the end times, and "shattered glass ass" isn't pretty.
I can't say that I agree.
It's funny how selective these kinds of policies can be.
Myself, I'd be more concerned with how female students are allowed to wear the oh so in vogue low-rise jeans designed to reveal the thong underneath...
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Slovenly and ugly happens to be the fashion right now...as a symbol of psychological pessimism.
Hair stylists nowadays train diligently to make hair look like it wasn't styled.
Women can pay 50 bucks to have that done professionally...or just simply drag themselves through the nearest hedge backwards.
The effect is the same.
Hair stylists nowadays train diligently to make hair look like it wasn't styled.
Women can pay 50 bucks to have that done professionally...or just simply drag themselves through the nearest hedge backwards.
The effect is the same.
holes in jeans, blouses dangling off one shoulder, men with stubbleSlovenly and ugly happens to be the fashion right now...as a symbol of psychological pessimism.
Hair stylists nowadays train diligently to make hair look like it wasn't styled.
Women can pay 50 bucks to have that done professionally...or just simply drag themselves through the nearest hedge backwards.
The effect is the same.
I agree.
We want to look tussled, it seems.