samcdkey on Islam

[Vega]

So is islam not properly practiced in saudi arabia?

 

[S.A.M.]

So is islam not properly practiced in saudi arabia?

That is easily the worst example of Islam.

 

[Vega]

so it's true!

 

[S.A.M.]

Then how does islam help you trace cause to effect?
Meaning of course how does this manifested world of matter impress on you the superior nature of god?

The nature of God is not the purpose of Islam; the message of Islam is to study creation and apply it for a wholesome and fulfilling life, while respecting the boundaries of natural and moral laws defined in the Quran.

Like for instance how does something that you find touching or impressive relate to the glory of allah?

All creation is for the wonder and education of man. The best form of worship, according to the Prophet, is that spent in contemplating the mysteries of creation and unravelling them.

For a sciforumite you are being surprisingly noncommital

Sorry, I'm not as well versed in philosophy as you are; it's hard to be elaborate when one is not an expert.

But the concept of bhagavan (presented above) does not violate the concepts presented in brahman and paramatma -
and on top of that this is from a scripture called the brahma samhita that is incredibly ancient - the only thing that remains is part of the 5th Chapter- brahma is the first living entity of creation and is responsible for the engineering of the material universe under the inspiration of vishnu - and the brahma samhita is a series of his realisations after meditating on the inspiration of vishnu -

Even the upanisads, which deal with brahman almost exclusively, give an indication of the bhagavan feature

Isopanisad 5
The Supreme Lord walks and does not walk. He is far away, but He is very near as well. He is within everything, and yet He is outside of everything.
Iso 8
Such a person must factually know the greatest of all, the Personality of Godhead, who is unembodied, omniscient, beyond reproach, without veins, pure and uncontaminated, the self-sufficient philosopher who has been fulfilling everyone's desire since time immemorial.
(indications god has a body but not a mundane one)

True; I did not mean to suggest that it did. Similarly although God has no form in Islam there are many verses in the Quran where such similes are used.

e.g.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (2:256).

"Only the Face of your Lord of Might and Glory will remain." (55:27)

"Wait patiently for the Command of your Lord, [O Muhammad], for verily you are in Our Eyes." (52:48)

"Verily, Allah heard the saying of those who said: Allah is poor and we are rich." (3:181)

"Is he then unaware that Allah sees?" (96:14)

Rest a littlr later.

 

[S.A.M.]

so it's true!

Hmm missing something in translation?

Saudi Arabia follows Wahabbism.

Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية, Wahabism, Wahabbism) is a Sunni fundamentalist Islamic movement, named after Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (1703–1792). It is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Many members of the movement object to the term "Wahhabism", preferring the term "Salafism".

Radical Salafism is the ideology of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization.A principal reason radical Salafis like Osama bin Laden advocate violence against the Saudi state and the United States relates to the presence of US troops on Saudi soil. By permitting this, Osama says the Saudis are no longer adhering to Islamic law and consequently war against them is permissible. Osama bin Laden bases his claim about the illegality of the presence of US troops on a statement of Prophet Mohammad in which the Prophet says: "Expel the polytheists from the Arabian peninsula." Non-Salafis, i.e., the vast majority of Muslims, disagree with Osama's judgement.

 

[spidergoat]

Except there are no more US bases in Saudi Arabia.

 

[(Q)]

Like communism in Russia ?
Of course, monarchies and dictatorships are perfect models for the study of secular principles.

Exactly, communism is another failed ideology as are monarchies and dictatorships. Marxist beliefs would be the closest to a secular model but fails to take into consideration human compassion.

You've obviously never read Hindu philosophy; the one thats more than 5000 years old.

Straw man fallacy. Mohammed, or whatever his real name was every bit a con man as Joseph Smith, getting 'revelations' whenever it suited his purpose, especially when he was being persecuted by the Quraysh. I mean really, orphaned at a young age, he trusted no one but himself and most likely picked up many of his scams. Then later, he marries a rich widow 15 years his elder and soon after her death, he takes a number of wives.

Your gullibility is breath-taking. Maybe you should get out more and stop spending so much time with your cats.

 

[S.A.M.]

Except there are no more US bases in Saudi Arabia.

Must be post 9/11, then.

 

[S.A.M.]

Exactly, communism is another failed ideology as are monarchies and dictatorships. Marxist beliefs would be the closest to a secular model but fails to take into consideration human compassion.

Was communism ever practised as Lenin or Marx described it?

Straw man fallacy. Mohammed, or whatever his real name was every bit a con man as Joseph Smith, getting 'revelations' whenever it suited his purpose, especially when he was being persecuted by the Quraysh. I mean really, orphaned at a young age, he trusted no one but himself and most likely picked up many of his scams. Then later, he marries a rich widow 15 years his elder and soon after her death, he takes a number of wives.

nwtrt

Your gullibility is breath-taking. Maybe you should get out more and stop spending so much time with your cats.

Sweetie, your concern is touching. However the only time I spend at home right now is the 5-6 hours for cooking and sleeping. And all my cats are at home in India (although we still keep in touch by phone). So stop holding your breath.

 

[(Q)]

The nature of God is not the purpose of Islam; the message of Islam is to study creation and apply it for a wholesome and fulfilling life, while respecting the boundaries of natural and moral laws defined in the Quran.

What a joke. Mohammedanism is as, if not more immoral, corrupt and intolerant as any other monotheistic religion.

All creation is for the wonder and education of man. The best form of worship, according to the Prophet, is that spent in contemplating the mysteries of creation and unravelling them.

There is no mystery to creation in Mohammedanism. Allah did it, where's the mystery in that?

 

[(Q)]

Was communism ever practised as Lenin or Marx described it?

Not while I was there, it wasn't.

nwtrt

Brilliant response.

Sweetie, your concern is touching. However the only time I spend at home right now is the 5-6 hours for cooking and sleeping. And all my cats are at home in India (although we still keep in touch by phone). So stop holding your breath.

That explains a lot.

 

[S.A.M.]

(Q)

This message is hidden because (Q) is on your ignore list.

 

[S.A.M.]

and there is also this warning in 12
Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.
- the principle is that if a person does not have a clear perception of god then it is inevitable that sinful propensities fill the void (I don't know where contemporary Hindi stands in regard to sanskrit, but how can one expect to develop ruci, asakti, bhava and finally prema with something that is formless - english actually developed as a trade language, so "love" can mean anything from sex to unmotivated faultless attraction and selfless service)

The relevant verses in the Quran which echo this sentiment would be:

"Say: Are those who know and those who do not know alike? "(39:9)

meaning of course that a man with knowledge is not the same as one without.

“Read! In the Name of your Lord, who created (all that exists); created man from a drop. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous” (Qur’an 96:1-3).

However there is also the caution to allow disbelievers in Islam their own form of worship.

Say: "Disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship nor do you worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship You have your own religion and I have mine." (109:1-6).

(BTW -How do you relate to the concept of loving god? What do you make of rumi? )

"Those who truly believe love God the most." 2:165

The worship of God in Islam is best accomplished through faith and charity.

"It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets and gives away wealth out of love for Him (God) to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and sets slaves free and who is instant in prayer, and giveth the alms; and those who fulfil their promise when they promise, and the patient in adversity and affliction and in time of violence, these are they who are true..." 2:177

Rumi was a Sufi mystic.

Dervishes—the name given to initiates of Sufi orders—believe that love is a projection of the essence of God to the universe. They believe God desires to recognize beauty by looking at himself within the dynamics of nature. Divine love is not restricted to what the term "love of God" implies, it also includes human loves with a perspective that views everything a manifestation of God.

The central doctrine of Sufism, sometimes called Wahdat or Unity, is the understanding of Tawhid: all phenomena are manifestations of a single reality, or Wujud (being), or al-Haq (Truth, God). The essence of being/Truth/God is devoid of every form and quality, and hence unmanifested, yet it is inseparable from every form and phenomenon either material or spiritual. It is often understood to imply that every phenomenon is an aspect of Truth and at the same time attribution of existence to it is false. The chief aim of all Sufis then is to let go of all notions of duality, therefore the individual self also, and realize the divine unity.

-is there a verse in the koran similar to the bible's "Man is made in the image of god" - how do you relate to that concept? Does it mean that god has dandruff?
There is a similar concept advocatde by plato that this material world is a shadow and that more real eternal counterparts exist in a realm that is composed of a superior nature.

No, like I said God has no image in Islam, so I'm guessing dandruff is out.

Brahman is eternity - the realm of brahman is described as the brahmajyoti and its qualities are where the knower, the object of knowledge and knowledge itself are the same thing - in other words thyere is no concept of individuality - other places it is described as merging into a light.

Thats interesting. There is a verse in which a parable is used to describe God as light.

God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! (24:35)

Of the 5 types of liberation one is to enter the brahmajyoti, but this is refered to as the crocadile mouth of liberation - because there is no opportunity for the loving service of god in the brahmajyoti (its all homogenous) - even though the brahmajyoti is eternity - it is not an eternal abode for liberation because the living entity cannot eternally reside in an abode that is bereft of engagement - so the idea is that a living entity, upon attaining the brahmajyoti, falls down to the material world since they are einevitable attracted to the inferior atmsphere due to a lack of engagement.

Why are there 5 types of liberation (is this what is called as Mukti)?

Paramatma innvolves knowledge - that is there is a distinction between the living entity and God that is eternal and constitutional
Katha Upanisad - Of all the eternal, conscious, individual persons, one is supreme

and bhagavan is honing that knowledge to the point of actually reciprocating with that entity in direct full consciousness - in other words bhagavan realisation is a more complete notion of god, just as entering the sun would be a more direct way of perceiving it than seeingit in the sky or merely observing its sunlight (which are aspects of paramatma and brahman realisation respectively

Again interesting.

God is defined as Truth in the Quran. The search for God (i.e. truth) is the pursuit of Knowledge (by the study of creation) which is incomplete unless it is utilised in Action (or the application of knowledge to make a better, more fulfilling life).

Maybe I explained that above, unless my weakness as an academic, namely the ability to render simple things incomprehensible, got the better of me.

Nah, I have it on good authority that I'm witless. Don't worry, I've lost touch with Hindu philosophy and there are so many concepts, I want to be sure I'm not confused.

So if you are faced with two or more options, and all of them are technically within the folds of scriptural injunctions, how do you allocate one option as composed of superior value to another (even if it just for the sake of your own personal life)?

By consultation:

"(Believers are those) who run their affairs by consultation among themselves." (42:38)

"And consult them (O Prophet) in matters (of public concern)." (3:159)

Maybe we could saturate this thread in theistic discussion for a change

Good idea.

 

[(Q)]

However there is also the caution to allow disbelievers in Islam their own form of worship.

Say: "Disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship nor do you worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship You have your own religion and I have mine." (109:1-6).

Your death, as a disbeliever is preferred, however in the mean time, we'll ransom your religion so you may practice while we plot your demise.

 

[S.A.M.]

(Q)

The misotheistic ranting of this message is hidden because (Q) is still on your ignore list. (Allah be praised)

 

[(Q)]

(Q)

The misotheistic ranting of this message is hidden because (Q) is still on your ignore list. (Allah be praised)

Ignorance IS bliss, eh sam?

 

[S.A.M.]

(Q)

Still hidden, dear, because (Q) is (once again) on your ignore list and has nothing to contribute but ad homs.

In the event of a miracle (i.e. a contribution not accompanied by allusions to delusions and other self-gratifying, but poorly disguised attempts at derision), said message will be revealed by the Grace of Allah.

 

[(Q)]

(Q)

Still hidden, dear, because (Q) is (once again) on your ignore list and has nothing to contribute but ad homs.

Sorry you feel that way, but your posts are quite insulting, to ones intelligence.

 

[S.A.M.]

(Q)

This message is hidden because (Q) has not yet achieved his miracle and remains on the ignore list.

 

[lightgigantic]

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Then how does islam help you trace cause to effect?
Meaning of course how does this manifested world of matter impress on you the superior nature of god?
”

The nature of God is not the purpose of Islam; the message of Islam is to study creation and apply it for a wholesome and fulfilling life, while respecting the boundaries of natural and moral laws defined in the Quran.

Then what is the relationship between this manifested world and the desire of Allah (or at the very least the Quran) - In other words what does the insistence of obedience to a set of codes indicate about this world - is it essentially for us? Is it essentially god's - and also raises the question about god - why does god exist? Does he exist for us or do we exist for God? (Who is the master and who is the servant?)

“ Like for instance how does something that you find touching or impressive relate to the glory of allah? ”



All creation is for the wonder and education of man. The best form of worship, according to the Prophet, is that spent in contemplating the mysteries of creation and unravelling them.

But how does this relate to your above statement that its not the purpose of islam to encounter the nature god? How can worship of god be equated with meddling in an infitite series of relative truths that bear no clear connection to the creator?

“ For a sciforumite you are being surprisingly noncommital ”



Sorry, I'm not as well versed in philosophy as you are; it's hard to be elaborate when one is not an expert.

didn't mean to be intimidating - I guess my philosophical sophistication is just a good cover for hiding my personal faults - actually I owe my education in philosophy to the fools that one is likely to encounter on this forum - stick around in the seams of religious debate long enough and you can also be one of the apparently "learned elite" I guess

True; I did not mean to suggest that it did. Similarly although God has no form in Islam there are many verses in the Quran where such similes are used.

e.g.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (2:256).

This verse seems to espound the valour of choosing the right thing over the wrong thing - doesn't say much to me about form/less

"Only the Face of your Lord of Might and Glory will remain." (55:27)

Why would they use the word "face" to suggest he has no form?

"Wait patiently for the Command of your Lord, [O Muhammad], for verily you are in Our Eyes." (52:48)

So what is exactly in their eyes? Of course the word "see" can mean many things, like "do you SEE my point" - and it seems to hold this signification in all languages - but it always involves a clear object of reference(In other words qualities or characteristics are involved that enable one to be sure one is seeing the right thing as opposed to the wrong thing) - What are the qualities or characteristics that would distinguish right seeing from wrong seeing

"Verily, Allah heard the saying of those who said: Allah is poor and we are rich." (3:181)

So allah hears - doesn't that imply at least consciousness? I mean you can't say that a microphone hears because it has no conscious facility to process what it is "hearing" - obviously god's "hearing" is not the same as sound going down a rabbit hole

"Is he then unaware that Allah sees?" (96:14)

Ditto here - not only is he hearing (BTW is the word "he" actually there in the original Quran or is it a convenience of english?) but now he is seeing as well

How does this hold with allah having no form? How do you reconcile these references?