samcdkey on Islam

[Light Travelling]

Yes. And that it is not a new phenomenon in the world for those with power to abuse it.

And of course many westerners are very quick to forget their not so distant crimes against women. I read this article recently

http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,,496617,00.html


talking about the treatment of women in eighteenth century England up to present day, which quotes;


“Even if (adulturous) wives escaped the threat of imprisonment, they were still subject to legal forms of domestic violence. A legal decision in 1782 established that a husband was entitled to beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb, while an even earlier judgement by Sir Matthew Hale established that rape in marriage was not a crime."

“ the harsh reality of women's lives in which "the cult of the family merely created doll's houses for women to live in within a man's world, underlining men's grip on the rest of society", according to the historian Roy Porter. How little they were trusted or valued is revealed by the law relating to children, which gave very few rights to mothers. In the second half of the 18th century, a wife who committed adultery was likely to find herself an outcast whose punishment might include never seeing her children again; even nursing infants could be snatched from her breast.”

And concludes with;

“There was, however, one more step to be taken before they acquired unconditional rights over their bodies. In 1991, with a palpable air of embarrassment, the House of Lords ruled that rape in marriage would in future be a criminal offence. It had involved two and a half centuries of protest and struggle, but at long last women had been liberated - even if they could not yet claim to be on absolutely equal terms with men from the physical and legal restrictions imposed under the cover of Christian morality.”

 

[(Q)]

There is no disagreement on One God, Muhammed or the Quran.

But scholars frequently debate on what the verses, Hadith and Sharia can be interpreted as.

The Islamic tradition is based on ijtihad (review of all the work of scholars from the time of Mohammed until now):

The work of scholars, the work of men, the message of men.

A one true god would never allow for obscurity of his message. He would also know that allowing a single man to send that message, especially one who hasn't the ability to write anything down, would guarantee obscurity.

 

[S.A.M.]

The work of scholars, the work of men, the message of men.

A one true god would never allow for obscurity of his message. He would also know that allowing a single man to send that message, especially one who hasn't the ability to write anything down, would guarantee obscurity.

That would mean absolutism and disregards the fact that society and people change over time. The religion is meant to help people to live the life best suited to their society with possibilities for change over time. The fact that we are having problems in Islam now is chiefly because we have stopped studying the scriptures and re-applying them in the context of modern society in the last 100+ years. Even more so in the Wahabis who threw out everything after the 3rd century in Islam (hence the dated laws of the Sharia)

The Prophet recommended ijtihad and the use of reason in applying the scriptures to daily life, as does the Quran.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Luqman: 31:27
And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink), with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

Al-Kahf 18:109
Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord. Sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

 

[(Q)]

That would mean absolutism and disregards the fact that society and people change over time. The religion is meant to help people to live the life best suited to their society with possibilities for change over time. The fact that we are having problems in Islam now is chiefly because we have stopped studying the scriptures and re-applying them in the context of modern society in the last 100+ years. Even more so in the Wahabis who threw out everything after the 3rd century in Islam (hence the dated laws of the Sharia)

The Prophet recommended ijtihad and the use of reason in applying the scriptures to daily life, as does the Quran.

The failure of manmade religions does not preclude their inherent problems. Those problems were always there, it is the recognition of those problems which has come to light.

 

[S.A.M.]

The failure of manmade religions does not preclude their inherent problems.

This sentence makes no sense.

Those problems were always there, it is the recognition of those problems which has come to light.

What inherent problems?

 

[Vega]

well according to sam "it's a perfect religion!! It's people like the wahabi's and radicals that make it look bad!

 

[(Q)]

This sentence makes no sense.

I suppose your inherent ability to draw conclusions in a second missed it.

What inherent problems?

You know, the ones you love to dance around or ignore.

Of course, to the indoctrinated, Islam is perfect, Islam is good, it is people who are bad.

 

[S.A.M.]

well according to sam "it's a perfect religion!! It's people like the wahabi's and radicals that make it look bad!

It says so in the Quran. You don't expect me to contradict the Quran now, do you?

"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor towards you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”(Al-Ma’idah 5:3)

 

[S.A.M.]

I suppose your inherent ability to draw conclusions in a second missed it.

I'm intuitive about languages; if it sounds wrong it is.

You know, the ones you love to dance around or ignore.

Of course, to the indoctrinated, Islam is perfect, Islam is good, it is people who are bad.

Here we go again!

I must have a masochistic streak; there is no other explanation.

 

[(Q)]

It says so in the Quran. You don't expect me to contradict the Quran now, do you?

Of course not, we wouldn't you to be stoned to death.

 

[S.A.M.]

Of course not, we wouldn't you to be stoned to death.

You're becoming incredibly tedious, you know.

I'm not going to repeat the same stuff over and over.

 

[(Q)]

I'm intuitive about languages; if it sounds wrong it is.

Most people use thinking as their means to understand.

Here we go again!

I must have a masochistic streak; there is no other explanation.

There are plenty of explanations, all but ignored from a state of delusion.

 

[(Q)]

You're becoming incredibly tedious, you know.

I'm not going to repeat the same stuff over and over.

hehe, funny how you haven't recognized the fact that is exactly what you do.

TDM should be your personal acronym.

 

[S.A.M.]

Most people use thinking as their means to understand.

oooohkaaaay.

The failure of manmade religions does not preclude their inherent problems.

i.e. the fact that man made religions have failed has nothing to do with the problems inherent in them.

Tell me how this makes sense

(unless you agree with me that the religion is not the problem? hmm?)

There are plenty of explanations, all but ignored from a state of delusion.

Bakatcha, sweets

 

[S.A.M.]

hehe, funny how you haven't recognized the fact that is exactly what you do.

TDM should be your personal acronym.

Especially when attempting to communicate with you.

 

[(Q)]

oooohkaaaay.

The failure of manmade religions does not preclude their inherent problems.

i.e. the fact that man made religions have failed has nothing to do with the problems inherent in them.

Tell me how this makes sense

(unless you agree with me that the religion is not the problem? hmm?)

Religion is entirely a huge problem, but you would ignore that in favor of believing in invisible gods, angels, heaven and hell, and all other kinds of fantasies, all the while claiming the necessity of such since we are all inherently violent animals on the brink of killing one another.

Yup, makes no sense at all.

 

[Vega]

Sam,
Assuming you have kids or I don't know if you do but let's just say would you force feed your religion to your kids and persuade them not to study or explore other belief's and faith's but yours?

 

[S.A.M.]

Religion is entirely a huge problem, but you would ignore that in favor of believing in invisible gods, angels, heaven and hell, and all other kinds of fantasies, all the while claiming the necessity of such since we are all inherently violent animals on the brink of killing one another.

Yup, makes no sense at all.

You can't be high on a Monday morning can you?

Now you are not only putting words in my mouth, but designing my beliefs as well!!

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam,
Assuming you have kids or I don't know if you do but let's just say would you force feed your religion to your kids and persuade them not to study or explore other belief's and faith's but yours?

I was taught all the religious beliefs, I grew up with Hindus and Christians in close proximity. I have friends who have adopted or converted to other beliefs.

There is no us vs them here.

And I think studying other religious beliefs is actually good, since it helps to understand people better. All religions (comparative) should be taught in schools.

We would never have this kind of fearmongering in Asia as I see in Americans, simply because we have grown up with people who follow other beliefs.