samcdkey on Islam

[Vega]

So does your language, culture, values, food habits, yada yada.

However, everyone eventually grows up and reaches adulthood. And the world is a very big place.

If you don't like what you got, go ahead, change it.

That's easier said than done!

 

[S.A.M.]

That's easier said than done!

Don't tell me, you're Hem.

 

[Vega]

Don't tell me, you're Hem.

hahaha...

 

[Fire]

So does your language, culture, values, food habits, yada yada.

However, everyone eventually grows up and reaches adulthood. And the world is a very big place.

If you don't like what you got, go ahead, change it.

You apparently don't agree that we need to be careful what we fill the minds of out children with, and if you think it's fine to fill their heads with superstitious religious nonsense, then you are part of the problem.

Since superstition is far from what we would call an educational requirement, why then do you feel it is fine for this to take place in the classroom, were children being as impressionble as they are, will genuinely believe these fairy tales to be true? This is where it is forced as children are not being given an alternative. I genuinely believed Adam and Eve were the first two humans on Earth. And what I am bitter about is the fact that I was once a Christian fundamentalist like the ones you see in the Bible Belt. Our teachers stigmatised protestants and even worse... people who didn't believe in God.

Sam, for once stand up and admit this is wrong and stop trying to equate this irrational trite with all other things.

 

[S.A.M.]

You apparently don't agree that we need to be careful what we fill the minds of out children with, and if you think it's fine to fill their heads with superstitious religious nonsense, then you are part of the problem.

Since superstition is far from what we would call an educational requirement, why then do you feel it is fine for this to take place in the classroom, were children being as impressionble as they are, will genuinely believe these fairy tales to be true? This is where it is forced as children are not being given an alternative. I genuinely believed Adam and Eve were the first two humans on Earth. And what I am bitter about is the fact that I was once a Christian fundamentalist like the ones you see in the Bible Belt. Our teachers stigmatised protestants and even worse... people who didn't believe in God.

Sam, for once stand up and admit this is wrong and stop trying to equate this irrational trite with all other things.

Since you apparently "escaped" this indoctrination, it does not work as well as you claim it does. In other words, you choose not to believe what your parents or school taught you.

I assume you believe that all humans should have the same freedom. They do.

If they choose to believe what they do, that is their choice.

If they disagree they will change, if not, who are you to decide for them?

Intolerance is wrong, I don't condone it.

In theists or atheists.

edit: would you consider the opinions of others as to what should be taught to your children as superior to your own?

And no, I don't think children should be taught religion in school, where did I say that? However they should be taught about all religions, to improve knowledge of world religions and tolerance to other beliefs.

And if by out children you mean our children, I don't recall having any with you.

 

[Fire]

Since you apparently "escaped" this indoctrination, it does not work as well as you claim it does. In other words, you choose not to believe what your parents or school taught you.

I had to wait over a decade before I had to choose, and even then the stains of religious identity were still strongly instilled within me. And wether some fish slip through the net isn't important, telling children what to believe remains wrong even if they get to reject it when they are old enough to understand it.

And I think you will find that forced religious indoctrination is as effective as I claim. Why else does religious faith depend on your location? Entire cities/regions divided by different faiths is a telling reminder of that.

I assume you believe that all humans should have the same freedom. They do.

Many of us find logic and reason no matter how extreme the brainwashing. But the point is that years worth of brainwashing from figures of authority result in automatic acceptance from children, and that belief will more often than not, transfer into adulthood. Religion should be a choice and a choice made by people who understand that religion and the alternatives (including non-belief). Children do not have the ability to make a distinction which is why we should be careful what to spoon feed them.

If they choose to believe what they do, that is their choice.

Children don't have a choice. They will believe what they are told to believe.

If they disagree they will change, if not, who are you to decide for them?

They don't have the ability to disagree until they are adults. Most infact are so brainwashed they can't make a rational decision on the subject when they become adults because their religious indentity has long ago taken it's root... In a modern society, we must not spoon feed ANY belief to children, and that includes atheism.

 

[S.A.M.]

I had to wait over a decade before I had to choose, and even then the stains of religious identity were still strongly instilled within me. And wether some fish slip through the net isn't important, telling children what to believe remains wrong even if they get to reject it when they are old enough to understand it.

And I think you will find that forced religious indoctrination is as effective as I claim. Why else does religious faith depend on your location? Entire cities/regions divided by different faiths is a telling reminder of that.

Many of us find logic and reason no matter how extreme the brainwashing. But the point is that years worth of brainwashing from figures of authority result in automatic acceptance from children, and that belief will more often than not, transfer into adulthood. Religion should be a choice and a choice made by people who understand that religion and the alternatives (including non-belief). Children do not have the ability to make a distinction which is why we should be careful what to spoon feed them.

Children don't have a choice. They will believe what they are told to believe.

They don't have the ability to disagree until they are adults. Most infact are so brainwashed they can't make a rational decision on the subject when they become adults because their religious indentity has long ago taken it's root... In a modern society, we must not spoon feed ANY belief to children, and that includes atheism.

The best answer to all your disagreements here is just one- education.

We are taught religion differently in India and our practice of it is also very different; even then there are extremists, but on the whole we have a policy of tolerance to all beliefs (and disbeliefs). I understand the problems faced here are different, but I see that the solutions are still the same, which have never worked but are still utilised.

Forced integration never works. NEVER.

Not for race, not for culture, and definitely not for religious beliefs.

If you want to move forward, find a solution that works.

 

[Vega]

sam, you must count yourtself lucky not be born an afghani or saudi where a "woman" would have no choice in either societies to choose her belief's and lifestyle...right?

 

[S.A.M.]

sam, you must count yourtself lucky not be born an afghani or saudi where a "woman" would have no choice in either societies to choose her belief's and lifestyle...right?

Hey I also count myself lucky not to be born in India during the British occupation when indigenous people (men and women) were treated like crap and had no freedom.

 

[Fire]

Is Islam wrong on any counts, sam? It's just that you are busy pointing the finger in another direction when someone points the finger at your faith. Is Islam infallible?

 

[S.A.M.]

Is Islam wrong on any counts, sam? It's just that you are busy pointing the finger in another direction when someone points the finger at your faith. Is Islam infallible?

You're awfully familiar for someone with 20 posts.

You wouldn't be a sock puppet would you?

 

[Fire]

We atheists all sound the same.

 

[S.A.M.]

We atheists all sound the same.

That is an evasion not an answer. I know several atheists on this forum and no, you do NOT all sound the same.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam,
so what you trying to say is that everything thats wrong with islam is due to wahabism?

Right now they are the biggest problem faced by Muslims.

http://www.muslim-affairs.com/science/artikel.cgi?nr=53

Asia's moderate Muslims are amply qualified to shed light on the attempt by the Wahabi movement, backed by Saudi funding, to impose its narrow, intolerant and oppressive views on other Muslims across the continent.

This is because Asia is home to many strands of Islam, including those who belong to the two broad categories of Sunni and Shiite, those who accept at least two of the four legal traditions of the Sunnis and to those who accept Sufism as a part of their faith.

The Sunnis are the majority among the world's Muslims, while the Shiite Muslims make up the minority. The Wahabis are members of the Sunni majority.

This divergence in Islam - one of the first since the death of Prophet Mohammad in 632 - resulted in the Sunnis accepting the fundamentals of the faith and the customs of the prophet. The Shiites accepted the fundamentals of the faith and placed additional loyalty to Ali, the prophet's son-in-law.

Shiites make up the majority in Iran, while pockets of them live in South Asia, from India and Pakistan to Afghanistan, and Central Asia. The rest of the region has largely Sunnis.

Sufism, on the other hand, is more widespread, with adherents living in South-east Asia, South Asia and Central Asia.

Regards the Sunni legal traditions that prevail, Hanafi, the oldest school and often described as the most liberal, is embraced by the Chinese Muslims, those in Central Asia, and parts of South Asia. The Shafi legal tradition is evident in South-east Asia and in South Asia.

In addition, the likelihood of Muslims in Asia having a broader outlook in religion is greater because a number of them live in close proximity to adherents of other beliefs, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Catholicism, Jainism and Taoism.

For the Wahabis, however, much of what passes for Islam in Asia could be considered a deviation from the fundamentals teachings of the Koran, which is an anathema to them. The Wahabis even have an Arabic word that they use to express disgust for any practice they deem ''not Islamic'' -- 'bida'.

The followers of Wahabism have been trying to make inroads into the world of Asian Islam since the 1970s. This effort, backed by Saudi money, has had two objectives: to ensure that the Wahabi version of Islam becomes the dominant form and to counter the promotion of Shiite Islam by Iran after the Islamic revolution there.

Hence, Wahabi enthusiasts today have no qualms combating other Muslims in Asia, attacking their Sufi traditions, condemning those who recite prayers with songs, destroying mosques if they do not conform to the austere regimen of Wahabism and ridiculing Muslims who celebrate the Prophet Mohammad's birthday.

For the Wahabis, the ideal Islamic state was the one in Afghanistan ruled by Taliban, where women were subjugated, laughter and song forbidden and only one form of Islam permitted.

Moderate Muslims like Noor, of Malaysia, are well aware of the other torments in the Islamic world. These purists and ''defenders of Islam'' can ''hardly speak for the thousands of other Muslims who have been killed by them in the quest for a model Islamic state,'' he wrote.

http://www.shianews.com/hi/talking_corner/topic_id/0000002.php

The terrorist organisations in Pakistan, known as Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhanagavi, who belong to Deobandi/Wahabi belief have increased their circle of violence not only towards Shias but also to the Sunni Muslims. Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims have also been targetted by the Deobandi militants.

The Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhangavi in Pakistan and the Taliban in Afghanistan enjoy close relations with Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaida netwrok.

Sipah-e-Suhaba and Lashkar e Jhganavi both recieve international aids mainly from Saudi Arabia

 

[(Q)]

"laughter and song forbidden"

Happiness is a state of infidelism.

 

[S.A.M.]

"laughter and song forbidden"

Happiness is a state of infidelism.

Happiness my dear (Q) is a state of mind.

And don't worry not all of us support the Wahabis.

In fact, we dearly wish that those who do support them would stop doing so.

 

[(Q)]

"only one form of Islam permitted."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that the whole purpose of a religion, at least one where the idea is one god with one message for all? Why wouldn't all Muslims support that?

 

[S.A.M.]

"only one form of Islam permitted."

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that the whole purpose of a religion, at least one where the idea is one god with one message for all? Why wouldn't all Muslims support that?

There is no disagreement on One God, Muhammed or the Quran.

But scholars frequently debate on what the verses, Hadith and Sharia can be interpreted as.

The Islamic tradition is based on ijtihad (review of all the work of scholars from the time of Mohammed until now):

There is a time-honored precedent for this diversity of religious authorities in Islam. Soon after Muhammad's death, faced with the fallibility of human efforts to interpret revelation, leading Muslim scholars agreed to disagree. Not all approaches were tolerated, but a form of pluralism became institutionalized in the 9th century through the four schools of Islamic law, which most seminaries in the Islamic world have recognized and taught alongside one another for centuries. In the 1950s, the rector of al-Azhar even agreed to recognize and teach Shi'ism -- the sect of Islam that predominates in Iran -- as a fifth legal school.

Disagreement and debate among Muslim scholars is thus expected and accepted, even as the boundaries of toleration have on occasion been enforced with expulsion or death.

 

[Light Travelling]

Hey I also count myself lucky not to be born in India during the British occupation when indigenous people (men and women) were treated like crap and had no freedom.

I count myself lucky not to be born in the lower classes of England during this same period when lower class people (men and women) were treated like crap and had no freedom.

I also count myself lucky not to be born in the lower castes of India before British occupation, when lower class people (men and women) were treated like crap and had no freedom.

BTW, the Indian elite didn't do too badly for themselves under British rule. Though I am not condoning British or any other occupation.


But what is your point here, are you trying to say that two wrongs make a right, that beacuse wrongs have been committed in the past it is acceptable for them to be committed now. Or by this comparison are you admitting that wrongs are being committed in Afghanistan or Saudi ?

 

[S.A.M.]

Or by this comparison are you admitting that wrongs are being committed in Afghanistan or Saudi ?

Yes. And that it is not a new phenomenon in the world for those with power to abuse it.