Religions are created by the delusional.

[phlogistician]

Could Joseph Smith have been epileptic? We know he had hallucinatory visions.
.

From what I have read, Smith said he had visions, but I think this was what he thought other people expected 'prophets' to have. Smith was a conman and a trickster, known to the Police, and let's face it, died amongst an angry mob. We have since discovered his 'translation' of the Golden Plates to be fallacious, since Hieropglyphs have been deciphered.

I think Smith was in it for personal glory, money, and power etc. I think the alleged witnesses were perhaps gullible, embarrassed to speak out, or perhaps smelled money themselves. Brigham Young saw an opportunity after Smith's death, even though Smith stated the bridles should be passed down to his family.

Mohammed was a good businessman too. As we L. Ron Hubbard. I'm not too keen to excuse these people as having hallucinations therefore, but rather they deliberately mislead people and told them what they wanted to hear.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Thats highly unlikely...why would they be saying the samethings? We all know Buddha dates back to 500-400 BCE....Christ dates back to 30 BCE....you all can pretend like it makes sense to say they were all made up...but it obviously doesn't....people don't all of a sudden start following non-existent people....and if they do its in very few cases....

Jesus says:
And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death"

2 Verses later:
"Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you" (Gospel of Thomas, 1-3)

Krishna says:
"I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal"

3 Verses later:
The Supreme Truth [Brahman] exists outside and inside of all living beings, the moving and the nonmoving" (Bhagavad Gita, 13.3-6)

It is quite obvious that they were talking about the samethings....just as a Mayan astronomer and an Indian astronomer...although having no real connection to each other can arrive at very similar astronomical calculations, because they're talking about the samethings....in the sameway different teachers explaining the same truth also sound similar...

I feel the need to continue:

"True, without error, certain and most true: that which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above, to perform the miracles of the One Thing." - Emerald Tablet of "Hermes Trismegistus" (Greek), allegedly the greek translation of the egyptian "Thot".

“One is all, all is one.” - The Buddha (Dhammapada)

"Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth."
The Buddha (Dhammapada)

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Jesus - Matthew (5,44)

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

And the NDE people have fascinating stories. I especially like the ones where they're screaming as they enter hell, get resuscitated, and become Christians.

Do you seriously think, that is you are born in an African tribe, and never got in contact with Christianity, you will never know God?

 

[Grantywanty]

Why do I (always being a skeptic) fear the dark after I have watched a scary movie? All humans fear ghosts at some point, but does that mean they are really there? Or is it merely a coat hanging from a hook?

Fearing that you might experience something is different from experiencing (or even hallucinating) something. That's one weak spot in your argument.

 

[nietzschefan]

The first monotheistic religion was not created by Zarathustra (aka Zoroaster), but by his followers, and was distorted in the process. Zarathustra was not a founder of the religion, he was a free spirit.
It is the same case with Gautama and Jesus. Gautama didn´t start Buddhism, Jesus didn´t start Christianity. Their followers did, and it was a lame attempt to feel what Jesus or Gautama felt when they became Christ or Buddha. Jesus was a free spirit, he followed nobody. Gautama was a free spirit, he didn´t like teacher or masters, he only followed himself.
Zarathustra, Jesus and Gautama weren´t exactly followers of nobody or any belief system for that matter. They were followers of only their spirit, which is the living word of the living God.

That is the reason why none of them leaved anything written. They didn´t want to be followed, a person that wants to be followed is not a real teacher. And that is the last message all of the true teachers leaved to their disciples, to not follow them, only follow themselves. To seek for the truth in our very soul, not anything external to us, but internal.

Religions are nothing but subjective science, what we know as science is only objective science, which is the study of thing that are external. The internal science is what we call religion, but it has been misinterpreted since the beggining of history. Because the science of something internal cannot be found anywere but within ourselves.

Change of Cast. -- As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples.

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.118, R.J. Hollingdale transl

 

[nietzschefan]

The first Christian. All the world still believes in the authorship of the "Holy Spirit" or is at least still affected by this belief: when one opens the Bible one does so for "edification."... That it also tells the story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the apostle Paul--who knows this , except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity...

That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans--that was due to this one man, a very tortured, very pitiful, very unpleasant man, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea--or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never-resting question: what about the Jewish law? and particularly the fulfillment of this law? In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive - this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded in creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness.

Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honor; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed towards them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments. And now he found that--hot-headed, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was-- he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the law, and he had to yield to this thorn.


Is it really his "carnal nature" that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove itself unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistable charm? But at that time he did not yet have this way out. He had much on his conscience - he hints at hostility, murder, magic, idolatry, lewdness, drunkenness, and pleasure in dissolute carousing - and... moments came when he said to himself:"It is all in vain; the torture of the unfulfilled law cannot be overcome."... The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it! how he searched for some means to annihilate it--not to fulfill it any more himself!

And finally the saving thought struck him,... "It is unreasonable to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way out; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law!"... Until then the ignominious death had seemed to him the chief argument against the Messianic claim of which the new doctrine spoke: but what if it were necessary to get rid of the law?

The tremendous consequences of this idea, of this solution of the riddle, spin before his eyes; at one stroke he becomes the happiest man; the destiny of the Jews--no, of all men--seems to him to be tied to this idea, to this second of its sudden illumination; he has the thought of thoughts, the key of keys, the light of lights; it is around him that all history must revolve henceforth. For he is from now on the teacher of the annihilation of the law...
This is the first Christian, the inventor of Christianity. Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.

from Nietzsche's Daybreak, s.68, Walter Kaufmann transl

 

[KennyJC]

Well, why is it that I (not being a skeptic, and believing that ghosts are real) not fear the dark at all ever? In the past when I was a skeptic and didn't believe in much of anything supernatural I had more fear...why is this? Could it be that fear only comes ignorance.....

Ignorance of what exactly? Since we all have had this fear then we know that this is something in our psyche, and not something that is put there because we have evidence that ghosts exist. So you stating that it is out of ignorance means nothing, since you are beliving in something based on mere faith.

Again, why would Gautama Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, and others just be lying for?

I wasn't relating to them specifically, more just people who write scriptures in general. But if Jesus ever said that he was the son of god, then he was either crazy or a liar.

You really think there is no meaning to life and that what the current evidence shows is the actual, absolute truth? Isn't it obvious to all that the true purpose of life is to attain the actual, true joy?

Joy is the true purpose of life? I don't see that in a universe full of big fish eats the little fish, disease, decline, premature ejaculation etc. If you think joy is the real purpose to life, and that there is a god and an afterlife... it seems to me that you are a bit afraid of reality... remember that ignorance you were just talking about?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

nietzschefan,
Nietzche went crazy because the only God he knew of was that of Christianity, and as stated, it just doesn´t make any sense. Christianity itself is a contradiction, how can anyone find their whole truth in hypocresy? If Jesus come back, he would be a strong advocate against Christianity, Jesus teachings cannot be made into a political organization, it destroys the teachings just for that reason.
Nietzche could have being enlightened if he had the information that is available to us, instead, he only knew the God of Christians, the God of the Ego, as Christians call it, Satan.

 

[KennyJC]

Fearing that you might experience something is different from experiencing (or even hallucinating) something. That's one weak spot in your argument.

If someone wants/fears something, then it may bring the hallucination upon them. But most likely, no hallucination is involved... just mere embelishment of facts.

 

[sandy]

....the God of Christians, the God of the Ego, as Christians call it, Satan.

Are you saying the God of Christians is the same as the god of ego/satan?
Or two separate entities? (Correct)

 

[nietzschefan]

Are you saying the God of Christians is the same as the god of ego/satan?
Or two separate entities? (Correct)

The persecutor of God. -- Paul thought up the idea and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God.

from Nietzsche's The Wanderer and his Shadow, R.J. Hollingdale transl

 

[nietzschefan]

nietzschefan,
Nietzche went crazy because the only God he knew of was that of Christianity, and as stated, it just doesn´t make any sense. Christianity itself is a contradiction, how can anyone find their whole truth in hypocresy? If Jesus come back, he would be a strong advocate against Christianity, Jesus teachings cannot be made into a political organization, it destroys the teachings just for that reason.
Nietzche could have being enlightened if he had the information that is available to us, instead, he only knew the God of Christians, the God of the Ego, as Christians call it, Satan.

Well I disagree, but will not derail this thread further - I have perhaps sone too much already.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Are you saying the God of Christians is the same as the god of ego/satan?
Or two separate entities? (Correct)

There is only one God, and by living in a Christian-mayority country, I have never heard of any Christian that had the concept of God correctly. You try to put Him into a non-existing concept that is only existent in your brain.
Your brain can never understand God, but you can experience Him.
When you say that Christian´s God is different than the Hindu God, or the African tribe God, you are mistaken, you are judging. By doing that, you are going against the same principles you are standing for.

Just by the fact that you go to church, and pray. You are going to the church only for others to see you, that is a fact. You don´t go to the church because that is what is in your heart. You go to church because you have been told that that is the right thing to do, and when you go, you see others and you don´t feel so alone.
But this is a desception, because as Jesus said, you should be with God in secret, alone, you don´t need others to tell you that what you are doing is right, you just feel it.
"Truly, they got what they deserve", only means that you got the respect of other Christians, no one, or nothing else...

God knows what you are thinking, then why pray???

Praying what is not in your head is hipocresy, and Jesus said it too.

I once saw a woman that was talking about how she hated two of her co-workers, and how she hated her boss, and she wished that they get punished for making her feel bad. So she prayed to God (she was a Christian, of course): "God make them receive what they deserve", hoping that by saying that, God will hear her and punish her co-workers for doing evil things.
And she is hoping to get a rewards from God, why for hating people? for asking God to punish others? what about herself, what she has done bad? is she to be free from punishment because she speaks to her imaginary friend?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Well I disagree, but will not derail this thread further - I have perhaps sone too much already.

You cannot deny the fact that Nietzche only knew the God of Christians, therefore his concept of God was that of Christians. Does that mean God is non-existent?

 

[nietzschefan]

No - Nietzsche's famous "god is dead" line was actually talking about "buddha". As you know he was well aquainted with Zoroastrinism as you stated - father of monotheistic religions. I cannot comment on how much he knew about Islam, he may well have completely ignored it since it was just a different flavour of bullshit, perhaps a bit more uniform. No he concentrated on Christianity, because he was European and it was one of the two favorite European "narcotics".

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Religions are man-made.

*************
M*W: ALL religions are man-made.

Christianity is Christ-made.

*************
M*W: Christianity wasn't invented by Jesus or Christ. Christianity at best was a creation of the hallucinatory Paul, although I don't believe he existed either. From current research done by Atwill and Carotta, it is very possible that the Romans created christianity as a parody of the HRE. Jesus wrote nothing and there were no eye-witness accounts. In other words, every single word written about Jesus is fiction.

Judaism is God-made

.

*************
M*W: No, this is not possible. Judaism came about from the evolution of Egyptian sun/moon worship, but don't tell Jews that!

All others are man-made. Paul and Moses weren't hallucinating. I would bet everything I own on that one.

*************
M*W: First, you would have to prove that Paul and Moses existed. Be careful what you bet. The odds are against you on this!

Yeah, I agree....the only true religion is the truth....the truth exists with or without evidence...it is eternal and everlasting....the truth is the truth...there is nothing more than the truth....

*************
M*W: Religions are man-made and, therefore, subject to human error. Truth does exist whether there is evidence for it or not, but that also goes for lies. Lies can easily exist without evidence to prove them as lies. Lies can be eternal and everlasting. So can myth.

The truth does not always prove what is, the truth can also prove what isn't.

There is only one path to Jesus Christ/Heaven and that's the one I've chosen.

*************
M*W: Which one of the 34,000 paths to Jesus have you chosen?

And the NDE people have fascinating stories. I especially like the ones where they're screaming as they enter hell, get resuscitated, and become Christians.

*************
M*W: Can you provide evidence of this phenomenon?

 

[Cottontop3000]

Medicine*Woman, have you read Christopher Hitchens' new book god is not Great? If so, what is your take on it? If not, get it. I'm only about half-way through it, but it's good. It's been #1 on the New York Times bestseller list.

 

[VitalOne]

Ignorance of what exactly? Since we all have had this fear then we know that this is something in our psyche, and not something that is put there because we have evidence that ghosts exist. So you stating that it is out of ignorance means nothing, since you are beliving in something based on mere faith.

If you really know ghosts don't exist...then why are you fearing ghosts? The reason you fear is because of ignorance...

I wasn't relating to them specifically, more just people who write scriptures in general. But if Jesus ever said that he was the son of god, then he was either crazy or a liar.

But Jesus said we are all the children of God....

Joy is the true purpose of life? I don't see that in a universe full of big fish eats the little fish, disease, decline, premature ejaculation etc. If you think joy is the real purpose to life, and that there is a god and an afterlife... it seems to me that you are a bit afraid of reality... remember that ignorance you were just talking about?

The reason all those things exist is because of ignorance...the purpose of life is attain the kingdom, where you are free at last from all this....

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: It's been stated many times on this forum that religions were created by the delusional. To recap:

Paul was epileptic and reported to have had hallucinatory visions.

Muhammad was epileptic and reported to have had hallucinatory visions.

Moses was reported to have had hallucinatory visions.

My question to the forum:

Could Joseph Smith have been epileptic? We know he had hallucinatory visions.

Are any other founders of religions known to be epileptic or have hallucinatory visions?

Thanks for your replies.

(HERE WE GO AGAIN)

but just to cut to the chase ......

x - "how do you know they were hallucinating?"
mw - " although we don't know for sure it is a reasonable guess"
x - "then how do you know that they didn't see something of god's nature"
mw - "because god is a fictional personality created by some person"
x - "How do you know that god is fictional"
mw - "because there is no proof"
x - "do you have proof that god doesn't exist"
mw - "no - just like there is no proof that that the FSM/IPU/celestial teapot doesn't exist
x - "but those things are clearly created by the imaginations of yourself or persons like yourself"
mw - "and god is too"
x - "you have no evidence for that"
.......

 

[VitalOne]

(HERE WE GO AGAIN)

but just to cut to the chase ......

x - "how do you know they were hallucinating?"
mw - " although we don't know for sure it is a reasonable guess"
x - "then how do you know that they didn't see something of god's nature"
mw - "because god is a fictional personality created by some person"
x - "How do you know that god is fictional"
mw - "because there is no proof"
x - "do you have proof that god doesn't exist"
mw - "no - just like there is no proof that that the FSM/IPU/celestial teapot doesn't exist
x - "but those things are clearly created by the imaginations of yourself or persons like yourself"
mw - "and god is too"
x - "you have no evidence for that"
.......

The circular logic of these atheists is fascinating...not to mention that anyone who says "God doesn't exist because there's no evidence" is using an argument from ignorance...