Reflections of a Former Christian

[Quantum Quack]

QQ,

You are a very good writer. I think your post was appropriate.

Is it a character flaw of mine that while Satyr clearly deserves pity, I see him only as a tool for my own entertainment?

I think to avoid taking IT to seriously one has to use humor as a way of avoiding the show of grief and sadness that one feels about what IT has polluted our environment with.
Sadness because it is uneccessary suffering
Grief because IT is also a part of our historical heritage that is slowly withering away as we evolve to a more peaceful and happier co-existence.

To say good bye to a part of ourselves that even though reviled was still a very strong part of our existence.
Like a person coming off an addiction to herion or smack or other such drugs, grieving the loss of the perverse and abusive love once shared.

 

[superluminal]

James,

No problem.

Satyr, If you really want to continue thusly, I'm up for it in the Cesspool. Bye.

 

[Quantum Quack]

James,

No problem.

Satyr, If you really want to continue thusly, I'm up for it in the Cesspool. Bye.

QQ nods in agreement

 

[wesmorris]

Hello again wesmorris, didn't see your reply during my last shift.

I think Tiassa pummeled your premise with his usual flair for verbosity but I can reply to it if you would like.

I didn't think so.... but I'm biased.. so..

 

[water]

§outh§tar,

Really? It will make him passive, then riot, then passive etc.

Aww not the strawmen again! I promise, I will show why man will not do this as soon as I'm done with the post (hopefully today).

Show it .... ....

Hell, if you put it that way, then no one is and there is no basis for the legal system. But that would put the sanity of people who defend the legal system into question.

'Tis better to say lawyers are moral. If not, see what doodoo that puts us all in.

It is best to have a mind of your own, and stand for it. Dare you?

Do you adhere to a moral code (to whatever extent)?

Yes.


* * *


Konstantinos,


I am tempted to yell at you, once more, because this is what you are asking for.
And to call you names and make theories and then we can both wail and complain and hate and blah de blah.

But this is no way to live a life. It's death.

 

[superluminal]

water:

It is best to have a mind of your own, and stand for it. Dare you?

Again, the question of questions. Why then do you follow a concept that has no hope of ever being proven, offers childish explanations of the world, and enslaves you to follow arbitrary rules set down millenia ago, when science is available to you? Science is also a man made concept but has the advantage of allowing you to use your own mind to reveal objective truths. Truths that can guide you to a much more self consistent, compassionate, moral, and responsible world view.

 

[water]

Superluminal,

Again, the question of questions. Why then do you follow a concept that has no hope of ever being proven, offers childish explanations of the world, and enslaves you to follow arbitrary rules set down millenia ago, when science is available to you?

The thing is that I don't believe for the same reasons it would take you to believe.
Please read my post in your thread about believing and rationality.

For you, now, it seems that it would take to give up your mind, your integrity and your sanity to even seriously read scripture. I can understand that very well.

I can't think of a good way to explain all this right now, but I'll try to do it in the future. The acquisition of faith is a complex issue.

For starters, you might find these two useful:

-- Stages of faith, http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm (for comparison, also look up Kohlberg's stages of moral reasoning, it is standard introduction to psychology textbook matter)

-- And please read Tolstoy's Confession of faith, http://www.ccel.org/t/tolstoy/confession/confession.html (esp. chapter V is of pertinent interest here)

Science is also a man made concept but has the advantage of allowing you to use your own mind to reveal objective truths.

Really? Objective truths about what?
What objective truths about compassion, morality and responsibility can science offer, or can be reached using science?

 

[Jadon]

Whats with all of these scientific objectivity, morality and stuff you guys are talking about? I bet none of you hold a Professorship in Science and yet you want to reason that science is the proof that there is no Creator!!

Get real! The Creator was here from the BEGINNING and He will still be here AFTER THE END of these System Of Things. Let me assure you - Science will never be able to explain the Origins of Life. But why are you searching in the first place? Are you so selfish?

My advice - get a girlfriend (if you can), but if you can't get a change in attitude.

Jeepers!!! All this Bitterness!!

 

[tablariddim]

Don't reflect on it, just accept that you were taken in by the crap, but you're much healthier now.

 

[superluminal]

water,

I completely understand and respect your position. Thank you.

water:

What objective truths about compassion, morality and responsibility can science offer, or can be reached using science?

I've described this before - all of them, and ones you can't derive from faith.

First read this to see one reason why I pretty much hate religion.

http://home.tiac.net/~cri/2002/evomoral.html

Then read this example: (caution - searching in google for "evolution and morality" naturally returns a vast number of counterarguments by theists. I've read them all. Current evolutionary thinking is in complete accord with the development, in humans and non-humans, of morality, compassion, and responsibility.)

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/aparthib/evolutionary_morality.htm

P.S. I have read the bible and other theists "seriously". It's a primary reason I'm not a theist!

 

[superluminal]

Jadon, my friend.

You are being trivial. This has been an ongoing discussion of the merits of science vs theism and vice versa.

We all hold strong positions. Some of us are trying to understand why this is so. As for your statement

"But why are you searching in the first place? Are you so selfish?"

this pegs you as one of the dogmatic, blind, rather dull, theists that apparently make up the bulk of your group. Do your group an intellectual favor. Go away and quietly let your brain continue to atrophy.

 

[water]

Jadon, my friend.

You are being trivial. This has been an ongoing discussion of the merits of science vs theism and vice versa.

We all hold strong positions. Some of us are trying to understand why this is so. As for your statement

"But why are you searching in the first place? Are you so selfish?"

this pegs you as one of the dogmatic, blind, rather dull, theists that apparently make up the bulk of your group. Do your group an intellectual favor. Go away and quietly let your brain continue to atrophy.

"Why are you searching in the first place?" is a valid question.

 

[Jadon]

Thumbs Up to all those that seriously believe that they evolved fro BABOONS!! What an amazing insight!! Its a pity that such ones dont do enough to save their primate Cousins - the Gorilla, Orangutan, monkey and the many other beautiful species existing around the world!!!!

As for me? Uh-Uh!!. I am a human being and I am quite content to do what I was put here to do - care for this planet and the lesser creatures!!

 

[water]

superluminal,

What objective truths about compassion, morality and responsibility can science offer, or can be reached using science?

I've described this before - all of them, and ones you can't derive from faith.

Certainly not from a stage 1 or 2 faith, yes.
But faith as such, Christianity for example, is not determined by the stages of its adherents. It would be wrong to judge a religion or a philosophy by its adherents and how consistently they live their faith.

First read this to see one reason why I pretty much hate religion.

http://home.tiac.net/~cri/2002/evomoral.html

That there is a strawman.

There is a very ancient thesis that the only secure foundation for public morality is religion. Moreover not just any religion will do -- it must have supernatural being(s) who monitor your behaviour, have standards of right and wrong that you must meet, and who act on how well you meet those standards.

This statement is made by someone who doesn't understand religion well. One is faithful out of personal responsibility and integrity, to say the least.
Some people, however (in the Kohlberg scala, those would be the people in the first three stages of moral reasoning, which actually makes the most of humanity), don't have a strong sense of personal responsibility and integrity, and are moral principally because "morality is what you can get away with" or because they feel helpless against society.

Why people adhere to religion, and in what way, has, in my experience, little to do with their religion, but a lot with their sense of self, responsibility, their values and preferences.

Then read this example: (caution - searching in google for "evolution and morality" naturally returns a vast number of counterarguments by theists. I've read them all. Current evolutionary thinking is in complete accord with the development, in humans and non-humans, of morality, compassion, and responsibility.)

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/...ry_morality.htm

As explained there, all morality is conditional and bound by necessity. A means to an end.

Ask yourself: Is conditional compassion still compassion?

An utopian world of no evil is theoretically impossible in a species made of carbon based life form as we know it.

Then what are they offering, the evolutionary moralists?! Nothing better than what is now!

P.S. I have read the bible and other theists "seriously". It's a primary reason I'm not a theist!

Oh, come on. Stating that you have read scriptures is not the *reason* for not being a theist. Your reasons are particular things you have read there. What were those things?


Also, I don't think anyone ever became a theist or an atheist just by reading some texts. If they have become theists or atheists just by reading texts, then either a miracle happened, or they are enormously gullible and insecure.

 

[superluminal]

water,

Discussing things with you is hard. I said a "primary" reason, not THE reason. You state and pick on the obvious and it makes discourse difficult. Evolutionist aren't "offering" anything. Thats the differenece between religion and science. What is, is. By observation and testing. Philosophical debates of objectivity/subjectivity and reality are beginning to bore me.

My humble opinion is that the universe is a pragmatic place and notices not one bit of our philosophising. Here's the end of it for me:

Subjective: My love for my family and good food. Of no concern to ayone but those concerned, and unprovable anyway.

Objective: The earth exists as we define it. All agree. It's testable. It's proveable. It affects instrumentation and my head or yours if you fall headfirst out of a tree. And without humans, it still exists as evidenced by geology and paleontology. Very pragmatic.

Reality: Anything that can be shown to objectively exist. I wonder what a ten kilometer wide asteroid thinks of our philosophy as it vaporizes on impact with central Europe?

Therefore, by definition, religion deals with the subjective, science with the objective. Simple enough.

To tell you the truth, I'm getting close to the end of my need to discuss religion. It also "is what it is". It's a personal journey of inner reflection and philosophical debate.

Therefore I will continue to oppose it as anything but that. Keep it in your heart and your home. Leave it out of public policy, and my country. Take lessons from history and never, ever doubt why we fear, and despise the political or educational endorsement, in even the smallest ways, of religion.

And I have a headache damnit.

 

[water]

Discussing things with you is hard.

Take me as a challenge to your system.

What is, is.

Stating identities does shit.

Philosophical debates of objectivity/subjectivity and reality are beginning to bore me.

They are boring, mostly. There isn't much to say. Or too much.

My humble opinion is that the universe is a pragmatic place and notices not one bit of our philosophising.

You may think the universe doesn't care about you. But do you care about the universe and your place in it? Do you care about you? Where did you come from, and how come you are where you are?

I wonder what a ten kilometer wide asteroid thinks of our philosophy as it vaporizes on impact with central Europe?

Why would it matter what it thinks, if it does?

To tell you the truth, I'm getting close to the end of my need to discuss religion. It also "is what it is". It's a personal journey of inner reflection and philosophical debate.

Exactly. And the end is not in sight.

Therefore I will continue to oppose it as anything but that. Keep it in your heart and your home. Leave it out of public policy, and my country.

Why? Why should you be allowed to say what you think, but I wouldn't be allowed to say what I think?

Take lessons from history and never, ever doubt why we fear, and despise the political or educational endorsement, in even the smallest ways, of religion.

What is to be feared are *people*, not religion.
Religion without people is dead.

And I have a headache damnit.

Have a big glass of cold water.

 

[Jadon]

Go Water!! You should be Crystal Waters instead!!

 

[superluminal]

Go Water!! You should be Crystal Waters instead!!!

Because she's so transparent?

 

[superluminal]

“ Originally Posted by superluminal
Discussing things with you is hard. ”

Take me as a challenge to your system.

I don't have a system and you are not very challenging. Discussing things with you is hard because your responses are inconsistent and trivial most times.

“ What is, is. ”

Stating identities does shit.

Then why watse bandwidth responding to such a selfevident and trivial thing? See what I mean?

“ Philosophical debates of objectivity/subjectivity and reality are beginning to bore me. ”

They are boring, mostly. There isn't much to say. Or too much.

See? Inconsistent triviality.

“ My humble opinion is that the universe is a pragmatic place and notices not one bit of our philosophising. ”

You may think the universe doesn't care about you. But do you care about the universe and your place in it? Do you care about you? Where did you come from, and how come you are where you are?

Are you learning disabled? I evolved from pond scum, same as you. I'm here because deoxyribonucleic acid replicates. Same as you. Why are you here? (we already know how you think you got here).

“ I wonder what a ten kilometer wide asteroid thinks of our philosophy as it vaporizes on impact with central Europe? ”

Why would it matter what it thinks, if it does?

Ugh.

“ To tell you the truth, I'm getting close to the end of my need to discuss religion. It also "is what it is". It's a personal journey of inner reflection and philosophical debate. ”

Exactly. And the end is not in sight.

Too bad. After thousands of years of deep thought on the subject you'd think you could get there a bit quicker and easier.

“ Therefore I will continue to oppose it as anything but that. Keep it in your heart and your home. Leave it out of public policy, and my country. ”

Why? Why should you be allowed to say what you think, but I wouldn't be allowed to say what I think?

Dumb. You can say whatever you want. Just don't try to impose your religious ideas on me through policy. Which I know you and your theist friends are just dying to do.

“ Take lessons from history and never, ever doubt why we fear, and despise the political or educational endorsement, in even the smallest ways, of religion. ”

What is to be feared are *people*, not religion.
Religion without people is dead.

Deep insight. And the lesson is that people in possesion of religion are to be feared. You all have a manifesto from god that explicitly tells you to convert us or kill us. Competing gods cannot coexist in any way.

Deny that and I will consider your knowledge of religion in general to be on a par with your knowledge of science. Nil.

“ And I have a headache damnit. ”

Have a big glass of cold water.

Brilliant.

 

[Jadon]

Nah - because drinking Crystal Waters would be better then eating Crystal Meth!!!!!