Reflections of a Former Christian

§outh§tar said:
How to know when we see him?

The thing that I wish to say is that if you have to believe in a God at least believe that he is rational and reasonable and whose existance is not subject to belief. That he is not vain or violent, that he is responsible and caring and most of all, patient and forbearant.

If you must believe that God is sentient then he is the perfection of sentience.

Of course this God does not want you to drop you reasoning abilities.

If this is the type of God you believe exists or even want to believe exists then the only conclusion that is available is that religions in their current form are obsolete and deceptive as to what and who God is.

You asked God for guidance and you felt your faith disolve. Is it because you realised with God's help, that the God of your definition, [religious definition] doesn't exist?

Could it not be it is only your faith in man's interpretation of what is God that has disolved and not so much your faith in God.
That you have lost faith in the ability of man to show you God?

So you were pointed by the real God on a path of introspection and religious angst. Why is this not able to be seen as God's help for you?

It is only the definition of what God is that you have lost faith in. I suggest that you re-define your definition of what God is.

It could be said that now that you are in no-mans land [no-Gods land] that you now have the best opportunity to find your truth about your relationship with God rather than mimic the "religious" truth of others......
 
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§outh§tar,



Firstly, this
"MacM! Look at me, I'm physics!"
is the funniest title I have seen in a long while. Splendind!


I guess not. The only word available for a theist who is no longer a theist is apostate. That does not describe me since apostate refers to a willful defection. But the trap here is that most Christians here I know cannot bring themselves to fathom that someone can unwillfuly lose faith. You might accuse them but there is basis for this in the Bible.

The way I see it, is that you have unwillfully lost the sense of faith that you have unwillfully gained. So there is really no harm done.


Problem is God never showed up at crunch time.

How do you know that?


According to the promise that He will answer our prayer, I think not. If you say He will only answer at His discretion, then you mean He forsook me at His discretion.

Are you angry with God?


No. Whatever God wills, this happens. But we do not know God's will in all cases, so we can't make assessments of whether He is omnipotent or not.

Jenyar believes God is omnipotent and I was writing to Him. If we stick with your rational then we can say nothing about God, much less the word God itself.

I'm sorry, what I said wasn't clear enough.
We do not know God's will in all cases -- we have to consider that when something happens, it can be either an action of His, an action by a person due to His permission, or omission of action. All of it is according to God's will, but not all of it is God's action per se. But, as that verse goes, God works towards our benefit, so God is not the one we should fear.


Hah! Hah! SouthStar, you little bastard you. You wanted to make God be responsible for your obedience to Him, you wanted that God release you from your free will and choose for you.

God has granted you faith, but your obedience to Him is *your* thing. This is the really hard and scary part!

42Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Matthew 26
Many similar verses of commendation to be found.

Yes. What does this mean for you?
 
water said:
§outh§tar,

Firstly, this
"MacM! Look at me, I'm physics!"
is the funniest title I have seen in a long while. Splendind!

Do you know why I wrote that? (Are you aware of the joke behind it?) :D


The way I see it, is that you have unwillfully lost the sense of faith that you have unwillfully gained. So there is really no harm done.

Do you say faith can be willfully adopted?

And how do I know God never showed up? Because I no longer have faith. I'm not angry with God; just mildly disappointed.


I'm sorry, what I said wasn't clear enough.
We do not know God's will in all cases -- we have to consider that when something happens, it can be either an action of His, an action by a person due to His permission, or omission of action. All of it is according to God's will, but not all of it is God's action per se. But, as that verse goes, God works towards our benefit, so God is not the one we should fear.

You say it is my benefit to be bereft of faith? This may be true, but it doesn't sound like you. Even given acknowledgement of all your considerations, the fact remains that God didn't show up. Whether this was His intention or not does not leave Him in violation of promise. If it was God's will for me to lose my faith, well.. that doesn't make much sense from a Christian standpoint. Especially since I am incapable of once more becoming Christian. At least willfully.

Yes. What does this mean for you?

Such verses gave me ground for offering myself to His caprice. This story will parallel my prostration for Him at the time:

17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Mark 9

I commended myself and yet the promise was not fulfilled. Will He find fault?
 
§outh§tar said:
Yes.

But I too, am a man.

Do you see the problem now, for you and for me?

If you go out and sit under a tree and gaze at the reality around you, what do you see?
The question/solution is really: Even though you are staring God in the face your preconceptions stop you from recognising him.

So I ask myself "What is stopping me from seeing God?"
 
§outh§tar,



"MacM! Look at me, I'm physics!"
is the funniest title I have seen in a long while. Splendind! ”

Do you know why I wrote that? (Are you aware of the joke behind it?)

No. An allusion to "I'm psychic"?


“ The way I see it, is that you have unwillfully lost the sense of faith that you have unwillfully gained. So there is really no harm done. ”


Do you say faith can be willfully adopted?

No.


And how do I know God never showed up? Because I no longer have faith. I'm not angry with God; just mildly disappointed.

You no longer have faith? Whew. And how do you know that?


“ I'm sorry, what I said wasn't clear enough.
We do not know God's will in all cases -- we have to consider that when something happens, it can be either an action of His, an action by a person due to His permission, or omission of action. All of it is according to God's will, but not all of it is God's action per se. But, as that verse goes, God works towards our benefit, so God is not the one we should fear. ”

You say it is my benefit to be bereft of faith?

No, I'm not saying that.
But I can see Satan's hand in your doings.


If it was God's will for me to lose my faith, well.. that doesn't make much sense from a Christian standpoint. Especially since I am incapable of once more becoming Christian. At least willfully.

Uh.
Stop putting the cart before the horse.


Such verses gave me ground for offering myself to His caprice.

This is essential if you ever want to know about God:
Drop the cynical tone.
As soon as you begin talking about God's caprices and whims, you have covered yourself with the blanket of disbelief and distrust. No good can come of it.


I commended myself and yet the promise was not fulfilled. Will He find fault?

This is up to God. If you keep doubting that God is just, then you are better off completely ignoring God and everything that has to do with Him.
 
§outh§tar said:
Since its inception some two thousand years ago, Christianity has propered by teaching of an omnimax Savior who, by grace and love, condescended from the heavenly throne that the wicked might turn from the ungodly path and drink of the cup of His salvation. I know many men, many good men, who will swear to the veracity of this story. I know many men who will die to defend the story of Paul, which is the story of the Christ, the Lamb of God. The story I tell is different however. My story brings into question the Gospel, as it has been promulgated by the almighty Orthodox Church.

Ever since my renouncement of the faith, rationalism has prodded me towards a more naturalistic worldview. One in which there is no august Father awaiting me with outstretched arms after I whisper my last breath, one in which there is no meaning to life, one in which the old ideals of justice, honor, hope, and love have been measured and found to be wanting, one in which life is exposed to be an exercise in futility.

The effects of my apostasy are of far greater importance to me than the causes and in any case, my decision (I continue to refer to it as a 'decision' when nothing could be further from the truth) has long been thrust aside, trampled upon and forgotten in the vain hope that He will leave me be. But He will not. God will not let me go. In the beginning, which was really the end, I was harrowed by Pascal's Wager. What if? I asked myself. Strangely enough, I was less worried about an eternity in Hades than I was at dying and having to look into the face of a God I had let down, a merciful God in whose face I had spit. To make the record clear, I never left Christianity because I wanted to. I have no better explanation for the most painful decision of my life other than "I simply lost the will to believe". Like an old coat which would no longer fit, my salvation simply drooped and slid and finally fell into a heap behind me. Never to be picked up again. I know I shall never believe again. But I wanted to. Oh, I yearned for Him in the beginning. Christianity plays tricks on the mind. Dreadful, dreadful tricks.

One of the primary concerns for me during my days as a new man was that of morality. I was bombarded with frightening thoughts which suggested that I was free - free of God's law and free of man's law. I realized that I could steal, or curse and swear, or become angry, or even kill in a blind rage without a whim. Without an overarching moral law for compass, it seemed that I could finally let go and do whatever the hell I wanted because I was going to die anyway. On one hand, this gave me a bold sense of empowerment and on the other, a chilling and unsettling fear. If I was to be honest to my self, I would have to refuse to be moral because it was "the right thing to do". My atheism/agnosticism (or whatever; I am not sure of what I believe) was founded squarely on reason and if reason was to substitue the old panacea, then my final task seemed to me inescapable. If I left religion because I knew nothing about it except what I was told, then I had no choice than to leave morality behind for the same reason; if I left religion because all it seemed to do (in retrospect) was make me feel good; then I had no choice than to leave morality behind for the same reason; if I had to leave religion because it was circular and illogical and groupthink, then I had no choice than to leave morality behind me for the same reason.

If I had to leave religion in order to be honest to myself, then it seemed to me, by reason, and in honesty, that morality was but a discomforting reminder of a dying want to be part of a herd.

I never have abandoned morality, just as I still can not find the strength to tell any of my family members and friends (at least the Christian ones) the truth - I have become the very thing they pity most. It is not that they will hate me, or get angry. It is rather that they will feel sorry for me and try to counsel me and pray for me and murmur this poison: God is beyond the wisdom and logic of man. They would do the things that I would have done. And so I keep my silence and I go to Church on Sundays and I sing praises to God in the car with my mother and I pray at family gatherings like a good Christian would. Except that I'm not.

It is this dilemma of logical consistency which prompts me to write as I have today. If the atheist is to be consistent with his rationalist mantra then he must be a nihilist. Nihilism is the corollary of atheism. If you have an "impulse to destroy" and you resist out of fear of the consequences, or because you have been taught that it is some nebulous thing called "wrong" then you have become inconsistent. How will you insist that reason is the last line against absurdities such as religion when morality is so inextricably linked to it? Can you keep your peace intellectually knowing that people are raised with moral teachings, that morality varies from society to society, that the general populace seldom questions the basic pillars of morality, that people who go against what a society arbitrarily deems "moral" are punished the way the society sees fit? Are these not the properties of the religion you have come to loathe, the one you have come to feel indifferent to, the followers of which you have come to feel sorry for? Are people too not raised with religion, does religion not vary from society to society, do the religious not rarely question the basic doctrines, only going as far as to tweak and modify them for personal comfort - just like people do with morality? Is it then reasonable to espouse morality and yet condemn religion? Will you call for the punishment of someone who commits a crime disagreeable with your moral codes and yet be OUTRAGED when the religious call for measures in concordance with their tenets? Is this reasonable? Does this seem logical to you?

As cole grey once said, when you point a finger at someone else, four fingers point back at you.

(Well, actually, it's three, but who's counting? ;) )


Thanks for your time.
I`m sorry you have never been a christian.
 
He bloody well has. You haven't been here long I assume, but back in the day Southstar was as serious a christian as any other that has ever been on this forum.

Simply put: you're wrong.
 
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