Balerion
As I said to you then and in my last post, your opinion is shit on this subject.
You keep saying that, but you haven't been able to demonstrate
how it's shit. All you've done is stomp your feet and plug your ears like a child.
I really don't care what else is in that passage or what motivation it has "Love thy neighbor as thyself, that is the sum of the law" is the same thought in different words, and there is no separation of meaning, it is easily understood. It is wise. Even if the next verse is not wise or is full of religious non-sense. As I said, you throw wisdom out with the crap, that's your problem, not mine. Jesus seems to give you rabies, for some personal reason. Your hatred of Christianity is no more rational than Phelps' hatred of gays and just as dogmatic.
Again, you have to separate that quote from its context to get the desired meaning. In its intended context, the message is fear-based bullying. There's nothing wise about that. But for some reason, you can't seem to kick Jesus to the curb. Maybe you were raised as a Christian, and the full rejection of Jesus would be to you like rejecting your family or your childhood? I don't know. Either way, it's unhealthy, and unrealistic. If you want to
pretend that Jesus was a great moralist, that's your prerogative, but don't try to tell me that I have to join in the delusion.
So Jesus' repetition is just as valid as any other, and he said it in several different ways. Take the parable of the Good Samaritan, it teaches the principle of the Golden Rule without the least mention of godly wrath or soul destroying judgement. Is it too not wise? We filter everything through our intellect based on our experience and I want to be like the Good Samaritan because it is the moral thing to do, not because I buy the "Fire and Brimstone if you don't" that is all you seem to see.
The passage begins with someone asking how to achieve eternal life, so right off the bat we have eschewed any pretense of altruism that might have made the tale worthwhile. There's no kinship here, no neighborliness. Instead, we have people in a death cult asking for directions to heaven. If you want to take this tale out of context, fine, but as I've told you a dozen times before, you can find morality tales elsewhere that do not bait you with eternal life, and do not threaten you with eternal damnation. Your insistence on this Jeffersonian interpretation of Jesus borders on fetishism.
Yes, but I don't ascribe to that non-sense. But it sure makes a good club to wield around the head regions of so-called Christian politicians who think the poor should just die. I ascribe to the thought, though. If you believe in Christianity you really can't be a Republican in this day and age. And you can't be a moral person without following the thought for it's own sake, no matter what motivations the religious claptrap assigns to it.
As true as it is that many Republican politicians treat the poor as societal waste that should be purged through neglect, one could easily turn that around and say that there aren't any good Liberal Christians, either. Jesus' injunctions are impossible to live by for anyone who isn't going off to prepare for the end of the world. And as much as you like to take his words out of context, even the acts themselves are not enough to get into heaven. You must do them for
his motivations, and believe that he is the Lord, or you're just spinning your wheels.
So, slapping you is to destroy you? Ghandi defeated the whole British army using this philosophical position without once raising a hand(much less a weapon)in return. Seems to work rather well. "A kind word turneth away wrath" is the same thought. "Cooler heads" is too. It seems to me to be wise. I don't care what you think of it.
You don't care what I think? Spoken like a true zealot.
Gandhi, and the moral ramifications of his ahimsa and Satyagraha strategies, are far more complex than your overly simplistic summation hints. Who exactly did these non-violent protests work against? The faltering and desperate British Empire. How did they do against Apartheid? Not so well. Did you know that Gandhi also preached that the Jews should enact similar behavior in Europe so that they could "Melt Hitler's heart?" In one instance, his approach was successful, insofar as it could be. To apply it universally is suicide.
And yes, slapping you is a way to destroy you. Ask any child who has been bullied. See how well they're doing after a a decade or more of head-slapping and cruel taunting. Ask them how turning the other cheek worked out for them.
Only to those who think there is a god to be the son of. I don't, so it does not matter what he claimed or what is claimed he claimed(remember, his words were recorded at least two generations after he lived, generations who created the religion and religious non-sense associated with him).
As usual, you're missing the point. It matters who he was because his words are based on his authority. His injunctions are "Do this and go to heaven," while his warnings are "Fail me and go to hell." He offers no philosophy, no "This will make us all better people." He gives orders with eternal consequences. Without his authority as the son of God, his words are absolutely meaningless. For example, if
I had been the one to say "Love your neighbor and I'll give you eternal life," I wouldn't be enlightening anyone, because my message would be meaningless. If you wanted to ignore my bribe of everlasting consciousness, then my words are no better than what you might find in a fortune cookie. Without substance, words are wind. With the substance provided by Jesus, words are evil.
Your rabid hatred of Christianity is not reasonable and clouds your view. I reject the supernatural while seeking wisdom and I do not excuse the evil that religion does or did. But to each according to their discernement.
If you really sought wisdom, you wouldn't be looking in the Bible. My view of Christianity is objective and informed, while yours is clearly based on some childish desire to hold Jesus as a hero. And again, I don't begrudge you that. But don't tell me I'm wrong for not sharing your Jesus fetish.
Not Christianity, just the wisdom of some of what the man, Jesus, said. I don't hold Christianity in ANY regard, it is an evil and dangerous load of hooiee. I also loath most of what Ronald Reagan said and did to this country, but when he said that a bus driver shouldn't pay more in taxes than a millionaire I thought that was wise. Separating the wheat from the chaff is most of what being wise is all about. Take the good you find everywhere, even if it is embedded in a big pile of crap.
You're right about the Reagan quote, because it is wise to close loopholes allowing millionaires to pay less in taxes than average blue collar workers, and Reagan explains why closing such loopholes is right and good and why lowering taxes for everybody is right and good. (I'm not endorsing anything here, just saying that he gave his reasons) But there is no such wheat in the Bible, because the motivations for the commandments within are nothing other than chasing eternal life and avoiding eternal damnation. Where's the morality in helping someone because you're afraid of
not helping them? Where's the morality in helping someone when doing so means you're helping yourself even more than you're helping the person in need?
Some of what Jesus is claimed to have said is immoral, some is religious, but some is wise.
Yeah, you keep saying that, but you still haven't shown it.
And I will take the wise, even if I have to gut the Bible to do it.
You not only have to gut the Bible, you have to give the words new meaning and new motivations. You have to apply the philosophy of others to Jesus' words (and only
some of Jesus' words at that, and
always out of context). This is a pointless exercise, when you could just examine the roots of your own modern moral and ethical compass and find better sources who employ
actual wisdom, as opposed to a bronze age rabbi who employed fear-based end-times preaching. You cling to Jesus for some other reason, most likely unrelated to his teachings.
Jefferson had the same attitude and took a razor to his Bible.
And Jefferson was wrong. I know you'll gasp at this, but your insistence upon his infallibility is just one more of these pseudo-religious beliefs that you cling mindlessly to.
And who said the only source I use is the Bible? Not me. There are OTHER sources, and I treat them the same way. ALL religious texts are huge piles of crap, but most have pearls of wisdom embedded in them that do not depend on accepting the religious non-sense to accept the wisdom. And it is MY philosophy, I will base it on what I feel is wise from many different sources. Isaac Asimov is one of the wisest men who ever lived, you really need to read his commentary on the Bible(hint, he agrees with me, or rather, vice versa about how to extract wisdom from piles of religious dreck), though just reading his Science Fiction will give you the same info, minus the thees and thous.
Oh, you don't just use the Bible, you also use the Torah and the Quaran? Good for you. How about you move on to some secular philosophy with the rest of the adults?
And you may cite your idols and heroes all you like, because you're only making it more apparent that you've put
no original thought into this, and instead have constructed a "philosophy" based on what little you've read (all of it likely second- and third-hand) of people you consider to be smart. You value consensus over objective consideration. Color me unimpressed.
We've discussed this to death, I find your attitude unreasonable, you seem to feel the same about mine. You will not convince me that wisdom cannot be found in Jesus' words for discerning readers, you will never be able to see that wisdom due to your reaction to the religious crap it is mixed in. Let's leave it at that.
You'll excuse me if I don't just accept your ridiculous interpretation of our disagreement here. What's
really happened is that someone dared to challenge your faux-intellectual idolization of Jesus Christ, and the preceding post was your tantrum. I've exposed the mindlessness of your obsession, so you're eager to find a way out of the conversation before you're forced to admit that you're wrong. After all, why change your mind when you could just stupidly cling to bronze age myth? You're no different than the religious zealots you insult every day.
