Read the appalling Chapter 31 of the Book of Numbers

Below is the chapter of the bible being discussed

King James Version
Numbers 30.

The Book of Numbers
Return to Index


Chapter 31

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11
And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27
And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37 And the LORD's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and twelve.

39
And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and one.

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons.

41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons;)

47 Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.
 
And, there are plenty more insane ramblings in the same bible. Perhaps, you should read it sometime. ;)

I have read it in more than one translation and interpretation and remained confused by what I believe to be nonsense, such as Joshua making the sun stand still during one of their awful battles and slaughter, don't think that as a theist I just swallow anything I have read in the bible

I attend no church and make up my own mind as far as Deity goes :)
 
I have read it in more than one translation and interpretation and remained confused by what I believe to be nonsense, such as Joshua making the sun stand still during one of their awful battles and slaughter, don't think that as a theist I just swallow anything I have read in the bible

So, you swallow some things but not others. :roflmao:

I attend no church and make up my own mind as far as Deity goes :)

Of course you do. Your god clearly has nothing to do with your beliefs. ;)
 
So, you swallow some things but not others. :roflmao:



Of course you do. Your god clearly has nothing to do with your beliefs. ;)

Yes I do take note what is good in the bible and dismiss what I do not like. The bible is not a facsimile from god

Like pulling out the weds in my garden and burning them as a nonsense, if you get my drift

By the way have not yet found a way of dialogue without insulting a person :)
 
Yes I do take note what is good in the bible and dismiss what I do not like.

That's exactly what makes you a hypocrite.

The bible is not a facsimile from god

If it was, I would be a believer.

Like pulling out the weds in my garden and burning them as a nonsense, if you get my drift

No, it's more like ignoring that which contradicts your beliefs, even though what you do accept contradicts reality.
 
Below is the chapter of the bible being discussed

King James Version
Numbers 30.

The Book of Numbers
Return to Index


Chapter 31

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11
And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27
And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37 And the LORD's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and twelve.

39
And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and one.

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons.

41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons;)

47 Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

What is your beef with these texts?

jan.
 
What I find striking about the criticism is that neither side is applying any manner of dynamic reading to the criticism. Static superficiality like (Q)'s might not make for a useful criticism, but the defenders of faith aren't doing much better.
 
It would be difficult to defend something without moral refrain.

What do you take as being its dynamic defensibility? Is there some manner in which I ought to be applying the above lesson to my own faith or life?
 
King James Version
Numbers 30.

The Book of Numbers
Chapter 31

read 1 & 2 corinthians..

some passages from it..
2 cor 3:7-18
14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.


2 cor 5 :11-21

13If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

when they say 'old' here, it is referencing old testament stuff.
 
Context


What do you take as being its dynamic defensibility?

It's a matter of context. The passages are, firstly, viewed in hindsight, from a distant perspective. And, unfortunately, all the words can mean is what the various sides of the argument require.

But we must also recognize that centuries passed between Moses and Christ. People's regards for God, Its purpose, and their relationship with it transformed somewhat; one can suggest, for instance, that God's demands accord with those of the times. Not that this would necessarily answer the question. Rather, it might help people avoid wasting time on the wrong questions; in this case, that means avoiding superficial political inquiries.

Understanding Scripture and faith is not an easy task, for either the faithful or infidel. If knowledge, understanding, and enlightenment are what we pursue, cookie-cutter criticism and argument are worthless. If, to the other, we aim for politics and ego, cookie cutters are all we have to work with.
 
Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

There is no contradiction here, The only difference is whom is carrying out the revenge. God called on Moses to carry it out. But for us Christians God says Vengeance is His and that He will recompenses. So the wrong doers sill suffer wrath, it's just that the one tasked with doing it has changed.

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

They where tasked to carry out Vengeance against the Midianites that included a death penalty. Murder is illegal killing, They did not murder anyone.

3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

Jesus set that Law to his followers. But those who rebel against God they are still under penalty of the sword from God.

Jesus has a title in the Bible it is "The Word of God" look at the description of his second coming.

Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.



4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Yes the little ones who are innocent, Yes theirs is the kingdom of Heaven. So by killing the little ones they where ensuring them heaven. Right.... Because if they never grow up they would be innocent at the time of their deaths and therefore in Heaven with God..

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

The Mercy of God does not remove the Justice of God. The penalty of Sin is death then and it is still death now. God cannot undermine justice when one does not seek mercy from Him.

There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

Where is this rape report????? false accuser.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

You do not realise that the wrath of God upon sin is still active.

Nothing changed in that regard from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus.

God also is a God of mercy who showed in the time of the OT mercy to those who repented and sought His mercy for their wrongs. Read the book of Job why don't you. Now that mercy is obtained though faith in the atonement of the Messiah Jesus.

God has demonstrated what is good and what is sin
God has demonstrated the penalty of Sin
God has shown His mercy upon sinners who accept they are guilty of Sin
God has through Jesus demonstrated His long suffering towards sinners now giving them their whole lives to repent.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Oh!! man twist scripture to suit your own belief state. Moses was a despot as bad as any despot we see today, except he could blame god for his acts of brutality and genocide

Read Numbers 31 again with your eyes open please!
 
Oh!! man twist scripture to suit your own belief state. Moses was a despot as bad as any despot we see today, except he could blame god for his acts of brutality and genocide

Read Numbers 31 again with your eyes open please!

You should take your own advice, and stop trying to gain favour
with folks who don't give a shit.

jan.
 
Static superficiality like (Q)'s might not make for a useful criticism, but the defenders of faith aren't doing much better.

Nice dig T. I like the phrase "Static superficiality" hadn't heard that one before. Well done. :)
 
Oh!! man twist scripture to suit your own belief state. Moses was a despot as bad as any despot we see today, except he could blame god for his acts of brutality and genocide

Read Numbers 31 again with your eyes open please!

So you never intended to ask a question, Did you. You have already set your mind on what you wanted to preach only masking it in the form of a question.

Don't ask questions if you cannot handle the Answers and all you can do is reply to them with a pathetic one liner statement without any arguments at all.

Your false accusations against Moses are noted in eternity, you will be judged by your every Word.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Thank ye

(Q) said:

Nice dig T. I like the phrase "Static superficiality" hadn't heard that one before. Well done. :)

I try .... :cool:

Or, to be more serious about it, while I sympathize with much of your frustration, I also think the route you're following, at best, leads nowhere. The problem is that the disease runs much deeper than the symptoms. One might bitch to Heaven's end about certain things we see in religion, but without delving deeper into the causes, it amounts to nothing but sound and fury.
 
So you never intended to ask a question, Did you. You have already set your mind on what you wanted to preach only masking it in the form of a question.

Don't ask questions if you cannot handle the Answers and all you can do is reply to them with a pathetic one liner statement without any arguments at all.

Your false accusations against Moses are noted in eternity, you will be judged by your every Word.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So almighty god is going to judge me for questioning the literal truth of the bible. In Numbers 31, take out the name Moses and replace it with Hitler and you will see how nicely he fits into that appalling chapter of genocide

After all the Midianites were also his creation?
 
So almighty god is going to judge me for questioning the literal truth of the bible. In Numbers 31, take out the name Moses and replace it with Hitler and you will see how nicely he fits into that appalling chapter of genocide

After all the Midianites were also his creation?

Is this a question?

Moses was a despot as bad as any despot we see today

No that’s a definitive judgement upon another man. No questions there at all.

People are not judged for questioning God, seeking wisdom from God is a noble and worthy thing to do, But your not doing that, are you. You have come out swinging against Gods righteous judgement.

Your like a lot of supposed christians today who use the bible as a smorgasbord picking and choosing what to embrace and what to reject based on your own measures. Well your own measures creates for yourself a god in your own measures image. You are not God and your measures are faulty, The god you create in your own mind is not the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient of God
 
Is this a question?



No that’s a definitive judgement upon another man. No questions there at all.

People are not judged for questioning God, seeking wisdom from God is a noble and worthy thing to do, But your not doing that, are you. You have come out swinging against Gods righteous judgement.

Your like a lot of supposed christians today who use the bible as a smorgasbord picking and choosing what to embrace and what to reject based on your own measures. Well your own measures creates for yourself a god in your own measures image. You are not God and your measures are faulty, The god you create in your own mind is not the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient of God

In scripture it is said that God is the same yesterday today and forever?
 
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