Read the appalling Chapter 31 of the Book of Numbers

[IamJoseph]

Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

The Hebrew is a million times kinder and rightious: in equal ratio as Jews have not perpetrated the worst crimes in humanity, which Christianity did. Millions were killed in the name of Jesus. While the Gospel says Jews are born of the devil - it is Christianity which did all the devilish deeds - more so than Rome and ancient Egypt combined.

You are omiting pivotal verses and including what you want to - which constitutes devious falsehood. You are also not addressing the laws of the Hebrew bible, which the Gospels can never stand near: when the laws are examined, they are correct and this also applies to all war rules. Christianity flaunted the laws when it conducted mass murders. While the Hebrew makes all humans equal from one host parantage and meriting equal rights - Christianity has corrupted this and introduced the most vile racism in all recorded history - that one can be born evil and is damned if they don't accept the Gospels. You can bet that ain't Godly or God talking but some depraved Roman posing as a saint!

Yes - let's compare - but let's not cherry pick and distort - else the truth will never set you free. Also, it is wrong to bear false witness. Now let's look at the rest of your post, shall we?

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord.

False! Here is the correct text of that verse - and note the word 'REVENGE" - denoting that some wrong was done by the other side, but not even hinted at in your post:

2 'Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites; afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.'

And what did the Midianites do - why is the word 'revenge' in the text? The Medianites would attack the tents at night in the desert, in the rear, where women and children were placed, slaughter them by stealth, rob whatever they could, empty out all water - then they would disappear into the night. This was conducted for 4 years.

When this failed, they sent their young women, dressed as harlots offering sex for money, attacking the most vulnerable - when the men seccumbed for sex - they were poisoned. Normally, it is forbidden to attack the women, even in a war [as with the war with the Moabites, because the women did not engage in war. But this was different, the women did engage in the war, and caused 100's of deaths. This is of course not included in your post either. Some of the text you forgot to include [note the words harass - killing at night; beguiled you - by their women]

Numbers Chapter 25
16 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 17 'Harass the Midianites, and smite them; 18 for they harass you, by their wiles wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the prince of Midian, their sister, who was slain on the day of the plague in the matter of Peor.'

Destroying all food produce to cause death by starvation:

Judges Chapter 6
2 And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel; and because of Midian the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and the caves, and the strongholds. 3 And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east; they came up against them; 4 and they encamped against them, and destroyed the produce of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance in Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ass. 5 For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came in as locusts for multitude; both they and their camels were without number; and they came into the land to destroy it. 6 And Israel was brought very low because of Midian; and the children of Israel cried unto the LORD. {P}

This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill.

False. Killing innocent people - and murder - are not the same. Capital punishment applies for murder - and the Mediantes murdered 1000's of innocent folk. Hello?

Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

This is not a law but a crime: one must protect his family from wanton killers - else he is liable. Not that any Christians followed that non-law, nor is that law accepted in any judiciary institution. Christianity murdered more innocent folk than any other group in geo-history. Omissions will get you wherever you like! Isabel, Luther, most of the Popes [Pius!], Hitler - were all born christians - and Christians cried VE VERE NOT AVARE - throughout the mass murders commited. Will your Lord not take you up on your crimes - will he also forget to read?

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

This can only refer to those who use the sword to invade and murder the inhabitants of another land - which Christianity is guilty of throughout most of its existence. Jews have never invaded or killed the inabitants of another land. Omissions are rampant: in the America's, Australia, and a host of other lands - Christianity did what Jews have never done. Say hi to Jesus if you quote him - he may smack you for telling selected fibs and hiding the juicy bits!

4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

Wrong again. Did those women commit grave crimes - or did you forget to read the whole text!? Did Christianity burn innocent women at the rake for no crimes? Why was Joan of arc tormented and burned - did she commit crimes of the Midianites?

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.
There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

False again. The Hebrew law does not permit raping of captive women or to take them by force. There are three pages which define this, and it is markedly different from every other scripture and war crimes we see elsewhere. In contrast, Christians would round up ghettoes of Jews and burn them - any who escaped was cut down. The children, if they were not killed were sent to convents - a crime indeed to exploit children - but this crime was perpetrated in 100's of countries, like Australia and south America. Inevitiably, the children were raped by Christian priests. There can be no comparison here between Christians and jews. However, in ancient days, some wars did not allow captives, totally commonplace, but not to be considered by today's standards. The case with medevial christianity is absolutely horrific what they did to women and children: the Crusaders rounded up all in syngagoes, with no heed for age or gender - and burnt them all alive - while chanting IN JC. This was not limited to the crusaders - it was common practice in early European Christianity - only after killing all those who refused to convert in Europe, murderers knights were despatched to the Middle-east to continue a genocide agenda. It is deprave for a christian to point fingers at Jews or the Hebrew bible.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

How can you claim to be all eyes and ears when you omit and slash, then every statement when examined is false? :bugeye:

 

[IamJoseph]

Yes I do take note what is good in the bible and dismiss what I do not like. The bible is not a facsimile from god

Like pulling out the weds in my garden and burning them as a nonsense, if you get my drift

By the way have not yet found a way of dialogue without insulting a person

Yes please go to your Pope and ask him to dismiss the Hebrew from your bible - it is not healthy to worship something falsely and also defile it with false, priest sermon garbage. No one invited Europe to even touch the Hebrew bible - it was a totally voluntary action, in fact open robbery, perpetrated when the Jews were invaded and genocided by pre-christian Romans.

Analyse this. Your Saint - forgetting that Jews never came to Europe on a club med holiday, nor were they allowed to leave and return to their land:

Here he stands. He could not do otherwise. God help him.

http://www.metafilter.com/73124/Here-he-stands-He-could-not-do-otherwise-God-help-him
July 7, 2008 9:54 PM


"...aside from the Devil, you have no enemy more venomous, more desperate, more bitter, than a true Jew... What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming.... First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians.... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.... Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.... Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb." -- From On the Jews and Their Lies, authored by the man voted by his countrymen the second greatest German of all time, the theologian whose break with Rome began the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther.

Other selected quotes from Martin Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies include:
"No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
"...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!", and
Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.


"At times, [Martin] Luther seems as if he is all but calling for a holocaust: 'We are at fault in not slaying them.'"

"At his trial in Nuremberg after the Second World War, Julius Streicher, the notorious Nazi propagandist, editor of the scurrilous antisemitic weekly, Der Stürmer, argued that if he should be standing there arraigned on such charges, so should Martin Luther."

In fact, there are perhaps "two periods [of Luther's life that] have to be distinguished. During the earlier, which lasted until 1537 or shortly before, he is full of compassion for [the Jews'] misery and enthusiastic for their conversion to Christianity; in the later, toward the end of his life, he denounces them in unmeasured terms...."

But some Christians [pdf] argue that Martin Luther's anti-Semitism wasn't like Nazi anti-Semitism. Instead, the Nazis' "appeal to Luther was a post-facto justification of their anti-Semitism and not the impetus of it."

After all, Luther also wrote "Our fools, the popes, bishops, sophists, and monks — the crude asses’ heads — have hitherto so treated the Jews that anyone who wished to be a good Christian would almost have had to become a Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. Therefore, I would request and advise that one deal gently with them [the Jews] and instruct them from Scripture;"

Other Christian commentators, attempting to put Luther into a "Medieval context", also find Luther an anti-Semite but not "a prototypical modern antisemite".

It should be noted that, beginning with the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod in 1983, the various branches of the modern Lutheran Church have renounced and rejected Martin Luther's anti-Semitism.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's 1994 Declaration has yielded to a more passive voiced current apologia that seems to see anti-Semitism as a disease that takes its sufferers unaware: "Often in the past our interactions with Jews have been marred by misunderstanding, prejudice, and sometimes overt hostility, from which even the great reformer Martin Luther himself was not immune. But further into the ELCA's current document, Luther is condemned more strongly and linked to the Holocaust, though with the qualification that
ultimately the Nazis surpassed anything that Luther had recommended with their systematic program to physically annihilate the Jews. Luther had instructed pastors to advise their parishioners that although they should beware of Jews and avoid contact with them, “they should not curse them nor harm their persons.”
The German Lutheran Church (perhaps inevitably, given that in Germany Luther's prescription for the Jews were carried out, or as ELCA says, more than carried out), takes a somewhat stronger stance: "It is imperative for the Lutheran Church, which knows itself to be indebted to the work and tradition of Martin Luther, to take seriously also his anti-Jewish utterances, to acknowledge their theological function, and to reflect on their consequences.... Both sayings of Martin Luther and specific expressions of Lutheran theology have had anti-Jewish consequences."
posted by orthogonality (87 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite

http://www.metafilter.com/73124/Here-he-stands-He-could-not-do-otherwise-God-help-him

One can flood this thread with yearly evils of Christianity. But all fly over the cookoo's head. There is nothing more depraved than Christians and Muslims accuse Jews of their own crimes!

 

[IamJoseph]

When Hitler stands before God he will learn the truth of the biblical teaching that liars and murderers will not go to heaven, no matter if they use Christian language sometimes.

And what about Isabela, Luther, Pope Pius - will they be crowned saints in salvation square? What of those Christians who deny Jerusalem as the Jewish capital - when they are historical witness of it, and when their own ancesters destroyed this city? What of christians who do heil hitler salutes at the UN, voting that Hebron is not the birthplace of Jews? What of christians who remain silent when a Pope who instigated the Holocaust is considered as a saint:

'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO THEIR HOMELAND - BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC" - Pope Pius at the helm of W.W.II.

Where does the bible teach that the blond blue-eyed Aryans are the master race?

How about exclusive kingdom keys and anyone not signing the dotted line goes to a very hot place for a very long time? How about Jews are born of the devil, their synagogues are satan's dens? How is this different from:

IT IS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS?

To say Christianity led to the Holocaust shows a complete ignorance of 19th century German history. Such comments are motivated by hatred, ignorance, and fear.

I don't think so. They cannot be motivated by hatred when examining Christian theology and christian deeds throughout their history. Christianity has perpetrated great evils - holding the sword in their hands, then blaming God for their murders - and also rejoicing of it as a passion. Stop blaming Jews for what was done to Christians with the most false doctrines in history - Nazi Rome is dead! The prefix of Roman attached to Catholicism is hardly one to wear with pride.

Christianity and Islam are both equally and jointly hell bent on the utter destruction of Jews. Today this not done in death camps but at the UN - where 4 of 5 security councils are controlled by Christians, with the help of 57 Islamic nations at the general assembly - and all other countries blackmailed by oil and other trade inducements to also raise heil hitler salutes at the corrupted UN. But the Hebrew bible has anticipated these evils:

KNOW FOR A SURETY THY SEED SHALL BE IN BONDAGE - YET I SHALL SURELY RETURN YOU TO YOUR LAND.

I SHALL MAKE JERUSALEM AS A BURDEN UNTO THE NATIONS.

AND THOSE WHO CURSE YOU [WITH NO MERITING REASON] - I SHALL CURSE.

THE LORD IS ONE - THERE IS NO OTHER.