Ramadan and women
- Thread starter (Q)
- Start date
uuuh;, now i'm confused, did i say something wrong before? or maybe something you didnt like?
well, here's an advice, don't keep anything i say in your mind, i don't mean the infos, i mean, what i say generally, nothing personnal, but i don't remember i said anything wrong or said something to you, well, whatever...
now i'm confused, what?
Did you follow the link? It states that YES Tunisia is one of the most culturally progressive Muslim countries. IMO this seems to have led on from French independence as well as having had a clear minded progressive "founding father" so to speak. Reminded me of Singapore in that sense.
BUT, did you read the POV of a woman's activist? Just how difficult life is now for women in Tunisia? When Humans live in Civilized communities that seem to share a propensity for organized religion, dictatorial rule and quickly establish a Patriarchal state where men rule both the religion and state. Women are often reduced to the rule of baby batter bakery. Much like entropy, you have to keep putting energy into the system or it collapses back to these fundamental system.
That aside, I wonder why you felt a cultural connection with Muslims way over in the ME and not with the Black Muslims living in your own lands - namely Africa? Why not a united Africa? Isn't that one of the dreams of all Africans (you are do consider yourself African don't you?)
.
ansewering on your saying that women in tunisia living hardly, i say, "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" well, i don't need any of your links, i know where i'm living, and i know how things are in here, and i don't need to look it up on the internet...
ok, let's, stay away of my laughing, and, clear it up, how are they living hardly? and explain please.
a question: did you ever came to tunisia? or, did you ever talked to tunisians? or at least a tunisian forum? why don't you find a tunisian forum, write in google, tunisian forums, and find one, and pose your questions, they'll all answer you, and answer all your question about this and others if you have.
now about uniting all africa, to us, we are arabs, what most emportant, uniting all arabs? well, uniting the maghreb first, or uniting africa, we are in africa, but we're not even actually african, read history, we are, romans, phenicians, arabs, berber, etc etc... speaking arabic now, arabic culture, a very long and living arabic history, and effcorse you know carthage. ok, for example, u.s.a. is divided into 3 countries, what's first to you? unite the american continant? or unite u.s.a?
if japan is devided to even 5 countries, what's more important to them, uniting all japan, or uniting all asia, and those 5 countries will still 5 countries.
anyway, if you come ot tunisia, or a maghrebian country, you wan't think that you're in africa, anyway, did you got my point, or, need to explain more?
aand i'm not trying to be racist, because i'm not racist.
ansewering on your saying that women in tunisia living hardly, i say, "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" well, i don't need any of your links, i know where i'm living, and i know how things are in here, and i don't need to look it up on the internet...
ok, let's, stay away of my laughing, and, clear it up, how are they living hardly? and explain please.
a question: did you ever came to tunisia? or, did you ever talked to tunisians? or at least a tunisian forum? why don't you find a tunisian forum, write in google, tunisian forums, and find one, and pose your questions, they'll all answer you, and answer all your question about this and others if you have.
now about uniting all africa, to us, we are arabs, what most emportant, uniting all arabs? well, uniting the maghreb first, or uniting africa, we are in africa, but we're not even actually african, read history, we are, romans, phenicians, arabs, berber, etc etc... speaking arabic now, arabic culture, a very long and living arabic history, and effcorse you know carthage. ok, for example, u.s.a. is divided into 3 countries, what's first to you? unite the american continant? or unite u.s.a?
if japan is devided to even 5 countries, what's more important to them, uniting all japan, or uniting all asia, and those 5 countries will still 5 countries.
anyway, if you come ot tunisia, or a maghrebian country, you wan't think that you're in africa, anyway, did you got my point, or, need to explain more?
aand i'm not trying to be racist, because i'm not racist.
Last edited:
You not only know, you accept and agree in comfort - the imposition of a State religion, for example, is so normal to you you don't even notice it.shadow said:
Likewise the abuse and oppression of women in your culture, and the various issues deriving therefrom.
You are so comfortable with that, you dream of a unity with the other "Arab" countries, even the worst of the religious fundies and tyrannies, as being cultures and peoples like yourself, as being fellows in your racial and religious identity.
We, too, see the resemblance between your expressed views here and those of Arabs from Yemen, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and so forth.
OK, let me ask you this, if Caucasians in S. Africa wanted to "Unite" with Europe (for cultural reasons), you know Europe first Africa second - would you think there's a problem with this? I'm just curious.as for us, an arab union first, then go go africa,
Secondly, yes, I agree of all the (so-called) "Muslim" nations in the and around the ME Tunisia has the best equality laws. My point is this is a relatively modern concept. Before 50 years ago that was not the case. People who live patriarchal societies reinforced by one of the most patriarchal religions in the modern era need to maintain vigilance. The same is even true of ideals as simple as democracy.
.
well, that's why i said it's almost almost impossible that all arabs unite, so, i said a maghreb union, and yes it is too normal to me because we don't have any obsession towar women or anything, and we don't have fundementalist or whatever you call or extremists in my country, anyway, go educate your self, again, i'm not going to explain anything, because, it will be useless...and you say i'm a relegious fundamentalist? and others? people like myself? what's wrong with you? first, before starting to accuse people and accuse countries, go educate your self first, ok? i will not discuss with you inless you educate your self, ok? huh, abuse to women...what's next? tunisians are terrorists? or tunisians eat children??? and the answer to all the things you said about my country, well, why will i answer, you will waste my time, you don't worth it, it's useless to discuss...
well, that's why i said it's almost almost impossible that all arabs unite, so, i said a maghreb union, and yes it is too normal to me because we don't have any obsession towar women or anything, and we don't have fundementalist or whatever you call or extremists in my country, anyway, go educate your self, again, i'm not going to explain anything, because, it will be useless...and you say i'm a relegious fundamentalist? and others? people like myself? what's wrong with you? first, before starting to accuse people and accuse countries, go educate your self first, ok? i will not discuss with you inless you educate your self, ok? huh, abuse to women...what's next? tunisians are terrorists? or tunisians eat children??? and the answer to all the things you said about my country, well, why will i answer, you will waste my time, you don't worth it, it's useless to discuss...
You have fundies, lots of them, mostly Muslim, and by all appearances including yourself (literal belief in a holy book, is the major criterion). The extremist factions of them are a well known and significant political issue.shadow said:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a912066866~db=all~jumptype=rss
You do not have separation of Church and State, you have a State religion, Sunni Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Tunisia
What would be next is me finding a couple of the particular feminist issues significant to Tunisia, which as a Muslim country is despite its relative liberality still in a bit of a hole on that score, in a twenty second Google search. Whereupon posting them I would expect to be greeted by more posts similar to those above, from you, about me crying and so forth.shadow said:
superstring01
Moderator
Then there's the pesky fact of their current reigning dictator (since the mid 80's), rubber-stamp parliament and little freedom of the press and/or expression.
~String
~String
Hardly. The first madrassa was opened by a woman in Morocco - its now one of the three major Islamic universities. Thats 1300 years ago. Mohammed was employed by his first wife. Thats 1400 years ago. Under Islam, women have had right to property, divorce,maintenance and remarriage for over 1400 years. In the west, yes, womens freedom is a relatively new concept. And even today, its hard to say that women have freedom in the west - the concept of freedom seems to be all about being sexually available and devoid of family and friends. They are individualistic yes, but not free.
.
ok i'll answer you, but first answer my question : )OK, let me ask you this, if Caucasians in S. Africa wanted to "Unite" with Europe (for cultural reasons), you know Europe first Africa second - would you think there's a problem with this? I'm just curious.
Secondly, yes, I agree of all the (so-called) "Muslim" nations in the and around the ME Tunisia has the best equality laws. My point is this is a relatively modern concept. Before 50 years ago that was not the case. People who live patriarchal societies reinforced by one of the most patriarchal religions in the modern era need to maintain vigilance. The same is even true of ideals as simple as democracy.
as i said, i'm not going to waste my time
we are fundementalist and etremists and terrorists and we eat children, and we kill women, did you forgot?
.
yet, compare to some arab countries,
also, not always about sexuality, they choose, but as you said, the genral meaning is about having multiple relationships, nad having sex and stuff, but, also,it's not all about that, well, i don't know how is the case where women don't have rights, i didnt face it before. or saw it how in the real life infront of me.
yet, compare to some arab countries,
also, not always about sexuality, they choose, but as you said, the genral meaning is about having multiple relationships, nad having sex and stuff, but, also,it's not all about that, well, i don't know how is the case where women don't have rights, i didnt face it before. or saw it how in the real life infront of me.
My ancestral cultures, both of them, had all that stuff, mutatis mutandis, a thousand years ago, too. We don't brag about that - it was a different world, long ago.SAM said:
And has it now, as well, which we do take credit for. Something serious seems to have happened to the various Islamic cultures, in the meantime. They're dramatically abusive and oppressive of women, compared with other easily observed cultures in similar circumstances.
Either that, or patriarchal religious fundies have been mentally crippled in certain specific ways regarding freedom and liberty. This "choice" of hijab, for example - tell me again how every single Muslim woman on Cedar Avenue in 45' latitude Minneapolis ends up spending their hot, muggy, vitamin D hours outdoors in a personal sweatbag, without compulsion.SAM said:
The individualism is necessary, not sufficient.SAM said:
But necessary.
You were supposed to wait until I found the links to the abuse and so forth, which you claimed is absent.shadow said:
Jumping the gun, you are. Here - you can repost the typical fundie reply (personal attack on motives, deflection of issue, claim of superiority to actual response, etc) again afterwards: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...010/aug/25/tunisia-backtracking-womens-rights
http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2009/04/21/feature-02
Last edited: