Ramadan and women

[S.A.M.]

My ancestral cultures, both of them, had all that stuff, mutatis mutandis, a thousand years ago, too. We don't brag about that - it was a different world, long ago.

But we are not discussing "ancestral" cultures. We are discussing Islam right here. Although it would be interesting to hear what happened to those ancestral cultures too.

And has it now, as well, which we do take credit for. Something serious seems to have happened to the various Islamic cultures, in the meantime. They're dramatically abusive and oppressive of women, compared with other easily observed cultures in similar circumstances.

But you don't have it, not really. The choice for women in the west is to be more like a man vs being more available to a man. Its not the choice to be a free woman, not really.

Either that, or patriarchal religious fundies have been mentally crippled in certain specific ways regarding freedom and liberty. This "choice" of hijab, for example - tell me again how every single Muslim woman on Cedar Avenue in 45' latitude Minneapolis ends up spending their hot, muggy, vitamin D hours outdoors in a personal sweatbag, without compulsion. The individualism is necessary, not sufficient.

For the same reason they wear underwired bras and basques, corsets and thongs and wax their body hair (including their pubic hair), pump botox into their lips and toes (the latter to enable wearing ridiculously high heels) and get breast implants, puke after eating and try to get into size zero jeans. The need to emphasize the freedom to choose, even when its painful and self abusive. They are a product of individualistic societies where what they look like is more important than who they are. What you see are just two extremes, those who want to "fit in" and those who reject the demand to do so. Who is more "free"?

But necessary.

By whose criteria?

 

[iceaura]

But we are not discussing "ancestral" cultures. We are discussing Islam right here.

You were discussing Islamic - actually, not even that: pre-Islamic - cultures of a thousand years ago and more. You were claiming that women's rights were a new concept in the West.

But you don't have it, not really. The choice for women in the west is to be more like a man. Its not the choice to be a free woman, not really.

There isn't any such "the choice" in the West. There isn't a "more like a man" of that kind option, and it would not be "the choice" if there were. This is something religious bigots from alien cultures who can't imagine how other human beings view things have a hard time with, I know, but a little effort to avoid parroting the worst of the American Christian fundies is not too much to ask. Please.

What you see are just two extremes, those who want to "fit in" and those who reject the demand to do so. Who is more "free"?

Neither of those extremes are free. One is a minority of a culture offering many possibilities of other ways with little notice or attention (not a single one of my three sisters, my wife, or my wife's three sisters, fits your description - and they get along in the culture here smoothly and normally) The other is the overwhelming majority of cultures that punish deviations severely.

But necessary.
”
By whose criteria?

By the criteria of free people, accountable to reason.

 

[scifes]

I have been reading the Quran, about Mohammed and his wife, the yellow very particular cow, and what happens to infidels, I have...

then you're in the wrong place, here we discuss things we don't read please.

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAYHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" well, i don't need any of your links, i know where i'm living, and i know how things are in here, and i don't need to look it up on the internet...

:roflmao:
TEN thumbs waay up

~string
hehehehhe
~String

...
i'v got no idea how the FUDGE you get away with it?

Something serious seems to have happened to the various Islamic cultures, in the meantime. They're dramatically abusive and oppressive of women, compared with other easily observed cultures in similar circumstances.

that's because you're judging them from your cultural viewpoint.
we see your culture very abusive and lowly with women too.

now, it isn't necessary that one of them is wrong, they could be both working social machines..
..but don't expect a cog from one machine to be interchangable with a cog from the other.

 

[Shadow1]

.

TEN thumbs waay up


...
i'v got no idea how the FUDGE you get away with it?

what did i do to get banned? for saying ~String ?
i think anyone can say hehehehe and ~String :] lol

 

[Shadow1]

.

i'v got no idea how the FUDGE you get away with it?

well, i know some people ..

 

[Michael]

Hardly. The first madrassa was opened by a woman in Morocco - its now one of the three major Islamic universities. Thats 1300 years ago. Mohammed was employed by his first wife. Thats 1400 years ago. Under Islam, women have had right to property, divorce,maintenance and remarriage for over 1400 years. In the west, yes, womens freedom is a relatively new concept. And even today, its hard to say that women have freedom in the west - the concept of freedom seems to be all about being sexually available and devoid of family and friends. They are individualistic yes, but not free.

SAM, of all people, I love your repackaging and remarketing of Conservative Christian/Islam history as something empowering to women the most. When you start talking about the "life of Mohammad" well, you're venturing into Harry Potter territory there, but, that's OK.


While it's nice to think that Amaterasu, the powerful sun goddess of Japan, founded Japanese society; but to think that Japanese weren't profoundly patriarchal does a disservice to real History. One could blame it on Confucianism, but, at the end of the day it became Japanese culture. At some point we should put down the Harry Potter and have a good long look at society and women's place in it. Islamic societies are probably the worse in the world regarding female equality. Everything from brainf*cking them into wearing full body suits in 100 degree hear (even at the gods damn beach - who else subjects people to THAT level of superstition) to polygamy to legally treating women less than men etc... etc... etc...

Notice that Tunisia smartly banned polygamy. Ever wonder WHY they did that SAM? Think it could be related to why they are much more progressive on the female equality front when compared with other Islamic nations.

It really makes one wonder: Is banning polygamy Islamic?

 

[Shadow1]

.

It really makes one wonder: Is banning polygamy Islamic?

answering to that, i say yes, because many people who get married with 2 women, they can't be ecaul to both of them, while in islam, it said, you can only get maried, with 2 women, or more, inless you can be extremly ecaul to both of them, means, you can't love one more than the other, if you gave a gift to a wife, you must give other one just like it in the value, to the other wife, and you shouldn't tell any of them, that you gave a gift to the other, anyway, since most men can't do that, then, don't do it, you can see some men;, where there's polygamy, you can find a man, married to a wife, when that wife become older, he get married again to a younger one, and, care more with the younger one, that's not ecaulity, and that's not right, and that's not what islam says, so, do you think he should get married to 2? well, 1 is ennuf.
so yes it is islamic to bann polygamy, if it was good to bann it, here in tunisia, many man can't even handle a one wife, how would they handle two?? tunisia is the first on the arab nation, and the 4th on the global nation, on the devorcing rate, and that's not something im proud of.


and, you still didnt answer my questions, hehehehe, i didnt forget it, how do you mean, by saying, it is hard for them living here? and things are hard here?...

 

[scifes]

well, i know some people ..

did i ever mention that shadow is the bestest best member on sciforums?

-------
banning polygamy is not islamic. it is anti-islamic.
"و انكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى و ثلاث و رباع, فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة"


gender equality is not fair. for the genders are not equal, biologically to boot.
calling for gender equality reflects an empty skull in my books.

and since michael is a master of misunderstanding, i don't mean they shouldn't be equal in having rights.

 

[Gypsi]

You were discussing Islamic - actually, not even that: pre-Islamic - cultures of a thousand years ago and more. You were claiming that women's rights were a new concept in the West.
There isn't any such "the choice" in the West. There isn't a "more like a man" of that kind option, and it would not be "the choice" if there were. This is something religious bigots from alien cultures who can't imagine how other human beings view things have a hard time with, I know, but a little effort to avoid parroting the worst of the American Christian fundies is not too much to ask. Please.
Neither of those extremes are free. One is a minority of a culture offering many possibilities of other ways with little notice or attention (not a single one of my three sisters, my wife, or my wife's three sisters, fits your description - and they get along in the culture here smoothly and normally) The other is the overwhelming majority of cultures that punish deviations severely.
By the criteria of free people, accountable to reason.

You mention "culture" here a lot of times. Isn't that the root of much of the misunderstanding about Islam - failing to distinguish between elements which are cultural and those which are religious? I've travelled to and lived in several Muslim countries/areas, and the differences - the diversity - are extensive.

 

[Shadow1]

.

did i ever mention that shadow is the bestest best member on sciforums?

-------
banning polygamy is not islamic. it is anti-islamic.
"و انكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى و ثلاث و رباع, فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة"


gender equality is not fair. for the genders are not equal, biologically to boot.
calling for gender equality reflects an empty skull in my books.

and since michael is a master of misunderstanding, i don't mean they shouldn't be equal in having rights.

yet, banning it solves many problems, and some times, polygamy is a solution to save a country, as for egypte, they have alot more women than men, so if everyone get married to one, many women will stay non married, so, they allow polygamy, also, baning it, is not anti-islamic, islam is not only about polygamy, well, we'll discuss more about it tomorrow, فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة
did you forgot that the prophet mohamed (pbuh), was extremly ecaul to he's wifes? also, if you can't be ecaul to them, don't get married to more than one, it's not also fair, to love a wife, more than the other, anyway,we'll discussabout it tomorrow, got to sleep now

 

[Michael]

and, you still didnt answer my questions, hehehehe, i didnt forget it, how do you mean, by saying, it is hard for them living here? and things are hard here?...

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that it's relatively hard being a woman living in Tunisia. I just wanted to stress that those hard won right for women are constantly under attack by people like Scifes and thus women and progressive men must be ever vigilant in protecting them - least they be lost.

 

[Michael]

d
-------
banning polygamy is not islamic. it is anti-islamic.
"و انكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى و ثلاث و رباع, فان خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة"


gender equality is not fair. for the genders are not equal, biologically to boot.
calling for gender equality reflects an empty skull in my books.

This is the reason why many Islamic nations have the worst record on female equality. Trying to be Islamic and progress into the modern world with the rest of humanity, the West but also the East, is like swimming in a snowsuit. Christianity would be bad enough, but Orthodoxy Conservative Christianity/Islam - that must be Hell.

Ever notice that Conservative Jews, Muslims, Mormons and Christians tend to agree with one another when it comes to treating women with legal and social inequity?



HEY LQQK everybody, we finally found some common ground between the mono-faiths. Their inability to recognize the equality of the female gender.

 

[Michael]

List of countries by sex ratio

The human sex ratio is the number of males for each female in a population.

Afghanistan = 1.01
Bahrain = 1.24
Iran = 1.02
Iraq = 1.02
Jordan = 1.1
Oman = 1.22
Pakistan = 1.04
Tunisia = 1.01
Turkey = 1.02
Saudi Arabia = 1.18
Yemen = 1.03


ALL of these countries have MORE MEN than women. Yet, many are polygamous for MEN. But, why not for women? As it stands, if women are not allowed to take an extra husband then either men will have to be alone or homosexual. Each man that takes an extra wife will force yet another man to live alone.

This is the way it has always been, the only reason "God" wanted men to have multiple wives is because men want to have sex with multiple women. Which is fine, but if that's the case, then the same laws should apply for women. But they don't do they? No. Because men are hypocritical ass wipes.

 

[iceaura]

that's because you're judging them from your cultural viewpoint.
we see your culture very abusive and lowly with women too.

My personal "culture" - a sort of a subculture of a peculiar kind - answers to reason. You can make valid criticisms of my subculture and Western culture overall from any cultural viewpoint, if you can make them by evidence and argument. The Dalai Lama has done that, for example. There is a sort of mini industry of criticisms of Western culture by outsiders of various kinds, from Red speakers to Zen monks, and it is widely read and respected.

Yours, as exemplified by you and the other fundie Muslims here, doesn't. And it values reason, I know, because its reps here object most strenuously to the conclusions drawn from reason and evidence (questioning of motives, etc and such), and they attempt to use it in criticism of their own.

So your cultural viewpoint does not answer to its own valued approach, or meet its own standards. And since your judgments of Western culture are not made by the reason you value, are even frequently based on simple errors of logic and observation, I don't credit them. It's not a matter of equivalent cultures bumping heads - yours is inferior in this respect. It doesn't answer to its own judgments.

Look at Shadow's claims for Tunisia, here, for example. Or Sam's comparison of fashion foolishness or even cripplings with the universal oppression of the burka or hijab.

Isn't that the root of much of the misunderstanding about Islam - failing to distinguish between elements which are cultural and those which are religious? I've travelled to and lived in several Muslim countries/areas, and the differences - the diversity - are extensive.

Since without such traveling to a place I can't know that stuff, for my posts here I take the word of the Muslims who live or lived there, compared with what physical facts seem well established.

Example: Most Egyptian women have been genitally mutilated, everyone agrees. In my town FGM is defended - by its practitioners, from Somalia and places near Egypt - on religious grounds, as motivated and justified by their Muslim faith. So in my town FGM is an aspect of Islam - I have that on the best of authorities, the local believers and faithful themselves. In the opinion of other Muslims it is cultural - but sectarian squabbles are familiar to us all, surely.

 

[scifes]

damn you VI!!

[from here]

• Was it hard to cast the female roles?

TS: The two American actresses were really hard. I wanted very beautiful and very intelligent and very good actresses, of course…. We were casting in New York and I made some drawings of the human centipede and a lot of actresses thought I was crazy and didn’t want to work with me. A lot of actresses only want to be beautiful and I had to ask those actresses to be mutilated. So they left. But the wonderful Ashley and Ashlynn, they had the b–––s to play it.

Democracy!!
Capitalism!!
Equality!!

 

[Michael]

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities,"
- Voltaire (1765)

 

[Michael]

Training another human to hide underneath a Burka in sweltering heat fearing God and man alike - is IMO, in this day and age, an atrocity. Teaching men to think women are less, and do not deserve legal equality, is an atrocity. I'm not saying Islam is the only ideology to outright promote, and or implicitly condone, such thinking. It does seem to be one of the last left. Not something to be proud of.

 

[Shadow1]

Conservative Christianity/Islam - that must be Hell.

no, if it was first based on understanding, and logic rather than beleiving everything you see and being told, and being moderate, and not more than it actually is, it wan't be like hell, is it like hell in here?

 

[Shadow1]

ALL of these countries have MORE MEN than women. Yet, many are polygamous for MEN. But, why not for women? As it stands, if women are not allowed to take an extra husband then either men will have to be alone or homosexual. Each man that takes an extra wife will force yet another man to live alone.

This is the way it has always been, the only reason "God" wanted men to have multiple wives is because men want to have sex with multiple women. Which is fine, but if that's the case, then the same laws should apply for women. But they don't do they? No. Because men are hypocritical ass wipes.

ook, you need a long discussion ,and i'm not expecting you to actually discuss in it, or even to worth to biscuss about it,
well, whatever, i got what you mean anyway.

 

[Shadow1]

Look at Shadow's claims for Tunisia, here

whaat?? i'm not claiming anything...oh, i see, then you're another hypocryte too.
ok you're right, i was claiming, we tunisians, eat children, and kill women, and, eat brains, and, uuh,idk, you finish it with your self...