Questions on atheist morality

S.A.M. said:
You need social order before you can have law and order. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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need brings people together
morals just help them live together

any kind of group activity can create that kind of order you are atributing entirely to religion
 
SAM said:
That issue is not debated by real scientists only by those presuming to test the supernatural using scientific tools.
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And the theist establishers of educational institutions - Islamic ones notably - don't forget them.
SAM said:
Look at the origins of schools and universities. The study of religion was the primary step in establishing education.
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There have been non-religious educational systems - the old Greek philosophers' schools, the poet schools of Ireland, the civil service system in China, various military schools, others.

All suppressed by religion, whenever possible. Which then writes the history. Control of education is control of power. For a while there, Europe under the Church, a Westerner could not learn to read and write without pledging allegiance to a particular denomination of Christianity, from childhood on. And literacy was power, then - one of the few routes to class mobility. It was given to the few, and controlled by the Church. And its misuse was punished - the Church used terrorism, against overt unbelievers.

Religion gets credit for founding schools, but with its monopoly on the spare cash and its suppression of secular schooling, blame to go with it. The better universities in the US have shed their religious requirements and impositions, and the ones failing to do that are of lesser quality in other ways.
SAM said:
Sure he does, if nothing, he is very imaginative with his illogic.
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He cares about honest description. Yes/No/ Don't know is not only badly misleading but childish.
 
Words may evolve, but they do not descend into BS.
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Sorry, what? You'll have me believe that the anti-atheist has the say on what 'atheist' means?

Logically speaking, there are three positions for a belief in God.

Yes, No, Don't know.
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Indeed, I lack a belief in your god. What next?

You can choose whichever is most fitting, but don't pretend that Yes/No is Don't know. Thats dishonesty.
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I have yet to meet anyone that "knows", indeed even theists will be happy to admit that it is a matter of faith. In saying, you and me are in the same position as far as "knowing" is concerned. You believe a god does exist I do not share your belief, indeed I lack the belief you have. What next?

And many people still say gay when they mean happy.
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Yeah, ok..
 
iceaura said:
And the theist establishers of educational institutions - Islamic ones notably - don't forget them.
There have been non-religious educational systems - the old Greek philosophers' schools, the poet schools of Ireland, the civil service system in China, various military schools, others.

All suppressed by religion, whenever possible. Which then writes the history. Control of education is control of power. For a while there, Europe under the Church, a Westerner could not learn to read and write without pledging allegiance to a particular denomination of Christianity, from childhood on. And literacy was power, then - one of the few routes to class mobility. It was given to the few, and controlled by the Church. And its misuse was punished - the Church used terrorism, against overt unbelievers.

Religion gets credit for founding schools, but with its monopoly on the spare cash and its suppression of secular schooling, blame to go with it. The better universities in the US have shed their religious requirements and impositions, and the ones failing to do that are of lesser quality in other ways.
He cares about honest description. Yes/No/ Don't know is not only badly misleading but childish.
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Not much different from athiests deciding what science is and who should practice it. Or thinking that faith schools should be shut down and banning religion in school and destroying religious institutions and killing priests and nuns and...but you get the picture.

But comparatively, organised religion did much to advance the cause of education selflessly; several universities today stand mute testimony to this fact.
 
How did ' Questions on atheist morality' devolve into a debate about the founding of universities?

Most Universities were founded by Polytheists. So does this mean polytheism is the best route to .... what exactly? And what does this have to do with atheist morality?

Imagine if we had believed in many different Aliens over the years. These same people founded universities. Then one day a group began to only believe in One Alien - Xenu. Prophets to Xenu arose.. The Prophets, ironically, found that Xenu had the same moral values as they themselves. For example, back 2500 years ago Xenu was pro-Slavery pro-Polygamy pro-don't-eat-porkery
THEN came the Xenu Messiah. Again, ironically, his morals mirrored socieites'. He was pro-monogamy, pro-can-eat-piggamy.
BUT, HARK, off in a distant land a New Last Xenu Prophet arose. He listened to Xenu speak telepathically and found that Xenu actually had the same morals as His Tribe and culture. Pro-polygamy, pro-slavery, etc... etc... etc....


Theists and Atheists and Alienologists from the same culture tend to share the same moral values.
 
SAM said:
Not much different from athiests deciding what science is and who should practice it. Or thinking that faith schools should be shut down and banning religion in school and destroying religious institutions and killing priests and nuns and...but you get the picture.
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Odd fantasy you've got going there. As far as I know, all that stuff is done mostly by theists - but then most things done by people are done mostly by theists (major scientific discovery a possible exception).

Reads like a talk radio rant. How is stuff like that suddenly up to your standards on this one topic only ?

SAM said:
But comparatively, organised religion did much to advance the cause of education selflessly
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Most helpfully by bowing out of the arena in timely fashion - or being pushed out.

But you can find the spirit still alive in several universities in the US - many with accreditation problems, but there's that rigid my-way-or-the-highway atheistic approach to reality based topics again.

Here's on that should meet your standards of both religious values and victimhood:

http://www.boston.com/news/educatio...andal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/
 
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jews have the highest percentage of nobel prize winners
maybe you're in the wrong religion
 
Atheistic Morals

I find a kindred spirit in Diagoras of Melos (first Greek atheist 500BCE).

Cicero, writing in the 1st century BC, tells of how a friend of Diagoras tried to convince him of the existence of the gods. Diagoras was on a ship in hard weather, and the crew thought that they had brought it on themselves by taking this ungodly man onboard. He then wondered if the other boats out in the same storm also had a Diagoras onboard.

I'm sure all of those sailors were, for their time and in their society, moral chaps. Which, in society, at the very least means they all agreed "You don't go around and kill people for no reason". YET, here, these pretty smart people (able to run a ship and conduct trade around the Mediterranean) were ready to murder poor Diagoras because he, like most/(or all) of us ... he disbelieved in the Olympian Gods. In essence, common sensical people were willing to murder for their superstitious beliefs.

I've never heard of atheist chopping off countless people's heads to satisfy a God? Like the Aztecs.

Yes, atheistic people can be power hungry evil people - some will kill for that power. Happily murder many people. They desire power, greed, money, etc... and they are happy to kill people for it.

Now, theistic people can be power hungry evil people too - some will kill for that power. Happily murder many people. They desire power, greed, money, etc... and they are happy to kill people for it.. BUT, they will also KILL and MURDER for nonsensical superstitious reasons too! Like, "The Sun God is angry" or "She's a Shia" or "He's a Polytheist".


Both people share the same social morals.

So which do we want involved in politics? I think it was crystal clear to the founders of the USA.

Michael
 
People who need a god to practice good morality are ass lickers of the worst kind. Being good for reward or to avoid punishment is in its self immoral.
 
Varda said:
jews have the highest percentage of nobel prize winners
maybe you're in the wrong religion
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They give away Nobel Prizes for lobotomy and to the lobotomised. I'm not impressed.

I think it was crystal clear to the founders of the USA.
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Probably explains why they crap all over the world
 
Blindman said:
People who need a god to practice good morality are ass lickers of the worst kind. Being good for reward or to avoid punishment is in its self immoral.
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Hence the philosophy that is gained from religiosity is the greatest gain in life

"I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." - Aristotle
 
iceaura said:
Odd fantasy you've got going there. As far as I know, all that stuff is done mostly by theists - but then most things done by people are done mostly by theists (major scientific discovery a possible exception).

Reads like a talk radio rant. How is stuff like that suddenly up to your standards on this one topic only ?

Most helpfully by bowing out of the arena in timely fashion - or being pushed out.

But you can find the spirit still alive in several universities in the US - many with accreditation problems, but there's that rigid my-way-or-the-highway atheistic approach to reality based topics again.

Here's on that should meet your standards of both religious values and victimhood:

http://www.boston.com/news/educatio...andal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/
Click to expand...


From where I stand, I can see the effect that theistic universities have had on education. I cannot see where any atheists have advanced it. Most of the universities were set up by churches for instance and in poor areas, it is madrassas and nuns that provide education; I've seen nuns and Muslim women teaching in slums or going house to house to teach reading and writing. What do atheists do to increase education?
 
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