You are wrong. The Quran in ARABIC refers to a fresh water spring and not a salt water sea and it calls it the mucky spring. The Quran continues to explain that the people who live there don't have much sun shelter that have cause their eyes to be slanted like the Asian race. Your translated commentry is not very accurate....it happens, read the Orignial Arabic text, it's even availalbe online.
You are wrong. The Quran in ARABIC refers to a fresh water spring and not a salt water sea and it calls it the mucky spring. The Quran continues to explain that the people who live there don't have much sun shelter that have cause their eyes to be slanted like the Asian race. Your translated commentry is not very accurate....it happens, read the Orignial Arabic text, it's even availalbe online.
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WildBlueYonder
Guest
most rain is the clashing of warm & cold air, allah still needs a course in meteorology, right?
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19991015072451data_trunc_sys.shtml
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/tg/wrnshdw/wrnshdw.htm
can you expand on that?
waves are caused by air currents, heat differentials & seismic activity. Ocean currents are caused by differential density layers, heat & corleitiose effect
http://www.videoweather.com/weatherquestions/What_causes_wind.htm
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov98/911599042.Es.r.html
http://geography.about.com/cs/oceanwaves/
I bet your daughter cannot prove the earth is round but this is sort of besides the point. The earth isn't perfectly round.
Your daughter probably cannot derive Kepler's laws nor can she derive the theory of relativity that governs the planets motions. This doesn't speak to the intelligence of your daughter, I can't do it either, but to the complexity of modern science. If someone cannot explain the inner workings of the optical nerve then they have no full knowlede of visual observation.
Yes, my point was only that science could not do it. It's sphere of influence is limited to the physical world.
Knowledge should not be given out freely. Otherwise, it is quickly abused because people have not progressed enough to control it. A case in point would be atomic bombs and other weapons. Science has made mankind captive to itself. Do you really think that the God who said "fashion your spears into plows" would allow us to have that kind of knowledge? No, I'd rather erase all mentions of atomic bombs out of history if that were possible.
Ok, admittedly she's only 4 years old so we can't expect too much. Then again, all she needs to do is look at the evidence- the photo's of earth, the videos of earth... hell she can even look at the arc on the horizon and establish that this planet is curved in shape instead of a pancake like the guys you trust, summized. You said science has never produced a simple truth but it has. Much that a 4 year old might not understand the inner workings of a camera - it is a simple fact that camera's take photographs- and it is the science that has allowed that. It requires no faith to operate a camera, and thanks to that it allows other scientists to gather evidence which can be viewed by everyone all over the world- Such as the world being round. Thanks to science my daughter can know the facts without having to fly off into space.
Ok, we could get pedantic and state the earth is not a perfectly football shaped but it is more round than it is flat. That's a fact which the guys in the bible couldn't figure out. You really trust their opinions?
Luckily there is a solution to this: Study and testing. Upon testing something that is a fact, everyone draws the same conclusions. She can study theories, and extrapolate on them, give her opinions based on the evidence etc etc. Everything is testable. Thousands of years of 'faith' and none of you can agree on anything. One guy says this, another says that..... all you have are disagreements, contradictions and blatant stupidity. Science moves forwards while you lot argue about the same damn thing and never make any progress, all completely futile, because at the end of the day- you have NOTHING to back up anything.
Could not? Or Has no need to? However.... while you lot are out stoning people who have leprosy, are naughty, or of a different religion - science has diagnosed, treated and helped many mental problems. It has aided people who to you are "devil posessed people who are going to burn in hell", that are cured without the need for sharp rocks. Religion says: If anyone acts different to us, kill them while science says: if anyone acts different to us, find out why and see how they can be helped. While you're out condemning people to a pit of fire, others are actually making a difference.
Tell me what's not in the physical world about moral behaviour and social patterns?
Yeah, i fully understand gods reasons for not telling mankind the planet was round- instead deluding them into thinking it was flat.
Your point being?
So we agree there is no such thing as spiritual observation. That is why you declined to explain it. In essence you made it up because it sounded like a good thing to say at the time but upon reflection is really just BS. Oh, and religion is not individual. However it is societal. Simply put okinrus, in general your belief is the way you were taught by society to believe. There was no godly inspiration involved. What you “thought” was inspiration was just some chemicals bouncing off receptors lining your synaptic terminals. Had you been born in India, without a doubt you’d be worshipping Shiva for the same reasons.
Yeah, the UFOlogists like to state similar lines only often incorporate a bit more conspiracy and anal probing to “flesh it out”.
You must agree that it is equally possible that God remains somewhat hidden by the most simplest explanation of all: it doesn’t exist.
You cannot physically observe someone's faith. Since you cannot, the only faith you can observe is your own.
No, I said <i>begins</i> with the individual. I did not say that religion was not about sharing. The second great commandment says "love your neighbor as yourself." But it is recognized that the source of all love comes from the love of God.
Without a doubt?
I’m not saying that you can or can not have faith or that you can or can not examine your own faith. You could have a whole lot of faith that you are going to win the lotto or a whole lot of faith that UFOs exist or lots and lots of faith in the divinity of Shiva. Incedentally, don't be shocked to find out you can physically observe someone's faith.
Anyway - So what you’re point?
We agree there is no such a thing as “spiritual observation”. You made it up right out of the blue sky. In the real world people come to believe what they are taught to believe. As most people in a society undergo similar religious indoctrination then most people share the same religous faith. As such, if you were born in India (say in the year 50CE) I am without a doubt sure that you’d be worshipping Shiva or another Hindi god for the same reasons you worship Christian ones today.
It begins with society.
Love is recognized as a combination of chemicals acting on receptors in the CNS as is all emotion. Which, by the by, doesn’t lesson the act or cheapen and experience.
As I've mentioned before in many threads, faith is not irrational belief. I cannot directly observe someone's faith no more than I can know what someone is thinking. Since I view faith has spiritual and not irrational, observing our faith is observing our spirituality. I did not make it up out of thin air as you said.
I did not go through any so called religious indoctrination. I chose to believe.
I don't quite see what your point is. People were misled by their own inventions. Because we now have the freedom to find information, we can make more educated decisions on our faith.
Love is not just an emotion.
What I'm trying to say is that the Bible and the Quran are not meant to be complete science books with zillionth of relations and definitions.....The Prophets and the books can only provide a person with beyond doubt belief that they are true, some doubt must stay in people's heart, and it's the personal struggle and understanding that connects the dots and forms the personality and choices of people.
For example, Whe It's stated that the earth has been expanded like a carpet, I don't read that like Snakelord that It's flat as a pancake. Snakelord has made his choice to denounce scriptures, while I have chose to look at the whole book without making unfair judgements, let me show you how exactly do Atheists make unfair judgement and Theists don't.
For example, the earth being expanded as a carpet.
An Atheist judges from this limited information that god simply made an error and stated that the earth is flat as a pan cake. But god used the word flat in other areas in the Quran and knows the meaning of the word, yet, he used expanded in his reference to the earth. The Atheists stretched the limits on the words to confirm their faith based ideas regarding the Quran.
I on the other hand view each word exactly as it means. A carpet is an anchored layer that is used to cover a surface. The surface may not be flat, and actually, we can cover our entire earth with a carpet if we wished. Our earth is indeed expanded and anchored and that doesn't contradict the notion that it's a sphere....Why would I make the pancake assumption here...it's simply not warranted, unless I'm doing some faith based investigation.
Flores, I agree with you. I understand the "earth being expanded as a carpet..." to be everywhere humans would perchance walk.
OK okinrus, you’ve made two points here and I think it is here that maybe we differ. So I will ask you a simple set of questions and if you could provide me with a short straightforward YES or NO answer – I would greatly appreciate it and also it may help us understand where one another is coming from.
1)Did you choose what would be your mother-tongue?
2)Do you believe that the belief in the Shinto religion is a rational belief?
3)Do you believe that the belief in the Buddhist religion is a rational belief?
4)Do you believe that the worship of a tree-god is a rational belief?
6)Do you believe that the belief in UFOs is a rational belief?
7)Do you believe that the belief that pixies have, in the past, controlled the weather a rational belief?
8)Do you believe that the belief in the god Thor is a rational belief?
9)Do you believe that the lack of belief in god is rational?
10)Do you believe that the belief that Jesus never existed and is completely mythical is a rational belief?
11)Supposing a person was born in Japan in the year 100CE. This person was raised to believe in the Shinto religious belief. Also, this person neither encountered nor was exposed to any other form of religious belief. Subsequently this person came to believe in the Shinto religion.
My question is: Did this person have a choice in their religious belief?
For this last question give the name of the religion you think this person would MOST LIKELY come to believe.
1) Supposing a person was born in Japan in the year 100CE. This person was raised to believe in the Shinto religious belief. Also, this person never ever neither encountered nor was exposed to any other form of religious belief.
My question is: What do you think in all likelihood would be this person’s religous belief? (remember I asked “in all likelihood” so just make a “rational” speculation on this persons likely eventual religious belief - one word will do.)
<i>Did you choose what would be your mother-tongue? </i>
no
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the Shinto religion is a rational belief?</i>
I have not studied Shinto. While some of the principles of Shinto may correspond to reality and thereby would not be irrational, any belief in pagan gods is irrational.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the Buddhist religion is a rational belief?</i>
Same as above.
<i>Do you believe that the worship of a tree-god is a rational belief?</i>
No, since it does not reflect reality.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in UFOs is a rational belief?</i>
Belief that UFO's have landed on earth is irrational. The book by Peebles outlines this myth. Nevertheless, belief in extraterrestrials is not irrational but meaningless.
<i>Do you believe that the belief that pixies have, in the past, controlled the weather a rational belief?</i>
Your going to have list the evidence that would lead someone to this belief. What sort of control? It's been said that a butterflies wings may influence the weather.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the god Thor is a rational belief?</i>
No
<i>Do you believe that the lack of belief in god is rational?</i>
Rational but not correct. Chesterton outlined the fallacy more elegantly than I can do so here. Your more or less asking whether Hitler was rational. Sure he was rational, even efficient, but his purpose was evil. In the same way atheism can be rejected because it's rationality is only the rationality of self. It admits the existance of no other rationale thus concluding the existance of ourselves is meaningless. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.all.html#v
<i>Do you believe that the belief that Jesus never existed and is completely mythical is a rational belief?</i>
No, there is plenty of evidence that says otherwise.
<i>Supposing a person was born in Japan in the year 100CE. This person was raised to believe in the Shinto religious belief. Also, this person neither encountered nor was exposed to any other form of religious belief. Subsequently this person came to believe in the Shinto religion. My question is: Did this person have a choice in their religious belief?</i>
Of course they had a choice otherwise we couldn't say they believed in their religion.
<i>For this last question give the name of the religion you think this person would MOST LIKELY come to believe.</i>
Probably the Shinto religion.
no
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the Shinto religion is a rational belief?</i>
I have not studied Shinto. While some of the principles of Shinto may correspond to reality and thereby would not be irrational, any belief in pagan gods is irrational.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the Buddhist religion is a rational belief?</i>
Same as above.
<i>Do you believe that the worship of a tree-god is a rational belief?</i>
No, since it does not reflect reality.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in UFOs is a rational belief?</i>
Belief that UFO's have landed on earth is irrational. The book by Peebles outlines this myth. Nevertheless, belief in extraterrestrials is not irrational but meaningless.
<i>Do you believe that the belief that pixies have, in the past, controlled the weather a rational belief?</i>
Your going to have list the evidence that would lead someone to this belief. What sort of control? It's been said that a butterflies wings may influence the weather.
<i>Do you believe that the belief in the god Thor is a rational belief?</i>
No
<i>Do you believe that the lack of belief in god is rational?</i>
Rational but not correct. Chesterton outlined the fallacy more elegantly than I can do so here. Your more or less asking whether Hitler was rational. Sure he was rational, even efficient, but his purpose was evil. In the same way atheism can be rejected because it's rationality is only the rationality of self. It admits the existance of no other rationale thus concluding the existance of ourselves is meaningless. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.all.html#v
<i>Do you believe that the belief that Jesus never existed and is completely mythical is a rational belief?</i>
No, there is plenty of evidence that says otherwise.
<i>Supposing a person was born in Japan in the year 100CE. This person was raised to believe in the Shinto religious belief. Also, this person neither encountered nor was exposed to any other form of religious belief. Subsequently this person came to believe in the Shinto religion. My question is: Did this person have a choice in their religious belief?</i>
Of course they had a choice otherwise we couldn't say they believed in their religion.
<i>For this last question give the name of the religion you think this person would MOST LIKELY come to believe.</i>
Probably the Shinto religion.
This is my point exactly. All belief in gods other than yours would be believing in “pagan gods” and therefore these people are irrational. But pagan will be by your definition of what is pagan. Which is circular reasoning and illogical. Therefore by your own words your belief in any gods including your own is illogical.
I challenge you to prove it doesn’t reflect reality. But to do that would be to admit that your god doesn’t exist either.
Ah, again you prove my point. That is, that the worship of god is meaningless. It’s only when we step outside of your belief system and into another that you are able to rationally accept the meaninglessness of your belief in god. Typical really.
Here we do the same. You again show that you can function logical outside of your belief system. Again you say there is no god and even feel comfortable saying it. Of course if you have “evidence” for god please feel free to share it with the forum.
Surely you see the humor now? By your own words if the believe in the god Thor is an irrational belief then the same must apply to your god as well. Evidence you say – then according to you Hercules, Athena, and the Zeus were also real. But your way out is if we mean “contemporary evidence”. As there is no contemporary evidence then we must, by your own rational, conclude that Jesus is completely mythical. Again we are in agreement – yes, Jesus was mythical. That is unless you have some said evidence. If so please feel free to share it with the forum.Although I didn’t say “okinrus” we can easily slot you in there as the ancient Japanese whose life I quickly outlined. Its nice of you to finally admit that you okinrus would probably, if placed in this mans shoes, be Shinto. Yes we are in agreement here. But wait - you are not Shinto are you? So it must be that society is who chooses individuals religion. Not the individual. You’ve said as much yourself. “ Probably the Shinto religion”.
You see, as long as the person isn’t okinrus and the religion isn’t okinrus’s religion. That’s when okinrus can answer rationally. But we can take okinrus’s answers about other religions and bring it back and apply it to okinrus’s very own religion. This by your own words we agree and can generalize: That the belief in god is irrational and it is society that determines a persons religion.
You see its all really quite simple.
I am more or less asking whether Hitler was rational
Yeah, that’s what I was asking?! Talk about twisiting a question - I've never seen one go that far around before! As for you second statement I can easily disprove it here with two sentences:
1) I am atheist
2) And of course, my life has meaning.
You see it’s simple really.
No, I'm only telling you that not everything rational is good. I'm both answering your question but also telling you why your question doesn't matter. I'm not avoiding it.
This is not proof. You cannot tell us why your life has meaning any more than you can say it has meaning. You cannot tell us the meaning of what you value in life nor why you value it. This is because life as most atheist say is the result of chaotic system. To admit that there is meaning is to admit the existance of order.
Not necessarily. In order to trust, and thus have complete faith in God, it necessarily that there be only one God. It is clear, and can be observed, that man can only have one master. He cannot do the will of two different gods who conflict.
It's not necessarily to prove something externally which is by nature internally. You can observe quite clearly internally that a tree god does not exist. Neverless, a start would be fore you to give your requirements for godship.
I have not rationally accepted the meaningless of my belief in God. Stop putting words into my mouth. The belief in aliens is no different than the belief in any scientific theory. There are no benefits to it, however. There are though benefits to worshiping God though.
Thor has not shown us any proof of his existance. His name is meaningless and does not have meaning beyond itself since he was created by man. There is proof of the existance of Yahweh in the bible and elsewhere. Yahweh must exist because existance cannot be created.
You have the authors of the new testament, the writing on the pass between Calvary, Jesus' grave, etc. Besides the authors of the new testament, you have the church father's who knew Peter, Paul and John.
No, this was due entirely to the lack of information. Given the information, there's choice. I don't really see your point. If society taught everyone that there wasn't a God, would we have a choice otherwise?
No you were making a comparison between being an atheist and Hitler.
one could simply say to survive, reproduce, and die however, quickly; my work I find intriguing and the research may lead to significant medical benefit for many people, classes I teach will add knowledge and understanding to my students as well as give me happiness to see them grow intellectually and broaden there view of the world, my partner and I cherish one another, my sports activities give me pleasure as well as those around me, making sashimi this weekend affected those around me and many new people bonded in friendship. Some of these people were Christian some Shinto some Buddhist and some Atheists – indeed there is meaning in all aspects of life; put simply - the meaning of life is what you make of it.
Okinrus, when it comes to religion you’re just egocentric and thus have limited your outlook to what you, Okinrus, think is correct. Typical really.
Internally. Yeah – you should say “what the little voice in my head is telling me” because this is really what you mean. Wait? I can that too: I can observe quite clearly internally that a okinrus’s god does not exist. Are you beginning to see how much sense you make? Of course you are not – to do that would be to acknowledge you just admitted in the previous post that you don’t belief in god and we both know you are not capable of doing that. At least on that we can agree.
Of course you didn’t. Let me show you an example:
Do you believe that the belief in the god Thor is a rational belief?
you easily respond:
No
I really don’t care for what reasons. That’s why I like to write that same sentence a few times - like most Theists you want to give me an answer for each and every instance. But honestly you just make up reasons each time by first comparing with your own belief and then concocting a reason why UFO’s or Buddhism isn’t correct. (Incidentally, many times if this doesn’t interfere with your belief the explanation for the NO answer is indeed rational.) However, eventually you tire of this and just answer with no because it's most likely correct (Ockham style). As you see here:
Let me re-write the question in it’s original form:
Do you believe that the belief in ”Okinrus’s God” is a rational belief?
What do you answer:
No
Of course I don’t expect you to agree with we me here. Although we can agree when it’s UFOs or the god Thor the answer is no. The reason being that you can not and will not rationally think about your own belief. Which is fine, many (if not most) people will and do act accordingly. I would expect nothing less from you.
I said contemporary. Let me rephrase: During the time period of perhaps a mythical or not mythical Jesus. Again, if I were to write Athena you would have no problem saying yes she is mythical as that doesn’t conflict with your indoctrinated belief. Again, we agree – even if you don’t realize it.
Lastly, in regards to the ancient Japanese:
No, Okinrus this was one last nail in your coffin. Again, so long as it’s an ancient Japanese you have no problem admitting to the fact that it is this person’s society that has determined his belief. You can and do rationally admit this. But again, as soon as we cross the threshold into Okinrus’s belief system and apply Okinrus’s own logic, that is when Okinrus can not and will not behave rationally. At that point Okinrus simply says: No, this was due entirely to the lack of information when the realization hits Okinrus at what he has admitted Okinrus’s defense mechanism kicks in and in typical fashion Okinrus first response is denial. And then in the same breath of course to feign ignorance. I don't really see your point.
Actually Okinrus you had no problem seeing my point until it bumped up against your own belief and you realized that you were the ancient Japanese and your religion was the one you had no choice in.
In summary, as I said – you can act rational when it’s neither you nor your belief, but as soon as that line is crossed then rationality takes a backseat to religious indoctrination. I understand that you can not see this. Some other Atheists on this board will have no problem either identifying with or at least recognizing the symptoms. Sorry Okinrus but religious indoctrination is typically an incurable meme. And unfortunately for you, you’re infected.
No, I do have a choice. I have studied most christian sects, some buddhism, Judism and Islam. An ancient Japanese man would not have knowledge of christianity, Judism, and others. Thus, the choice can only be based upon what he knows and well he only knows Shintoism. On the other hand, atheism is no different. If everyone was taught that there can be no God by constant brain washing it's unlikely that he would believe in God or for that matter any religion.
I don't question that your life has meaning but that you do not know why it has meaning. You just say happiness but this has no meaning beyond itself. It's just a collection of chemicals as you said.
I have met people who have seen the virgin Mary at Medjegorje, I have read about 70,000 people seeing the miracle of the sun, and I have seen photographs at Zeitun. While these are not the real reasons I believe, they should quench most of the my sign seeking mentality. I believe simply because it makes me a better person. Nevertheless, you haven't produce any evidence, no matter how small, that there is no God nor can I see any benefits to disbelieving in God. Likewise, if you believe in aliens and those aliens improve your life then by all means believe in them.
Although you like to think there is, there really is no difference.
I’m curious as to what is the “WHY” to the meaning of life you are referring to? Can you expound? How is that different from a person who believes in pixies or Thor or Zeus or Athena or an Atheist? Are you suggesting that until the Christian religion was formulated that no single person knew why their life had meaning? Poor poor Socrates – what a waste his life was huh? I guess you must also think that most Asians don’t know why their life has meaning either? It must be such a comfortable and warmly-good feeling to have that one worked out. I’m sure that’s part of the lure of the religious meme. That is - to be taught meaning instead of figuring it out for ones self.
By that rational I could suggest that if believing in UFOs makes a person a “better person” you would therefore advocate that line of belief?
Or if being Atheist makes a person a better person than that is a good thing as well?
Or how about being a Nazi and teaching your children to be Nazis – lets pretend they never hurt a single person – but they feel they are a “better person” for teaching their children to be bigots?
I think the bar may have to be raised here?
I also can not “provide evidence” no matter how small that there is no Thor God either. As a matter of fact – neither can you. I can not provide evidence that there are no UFOs and as a matter of fact neither can you. The same for Buddha. As a matter of fact – it’s pretty hard to “provide evidence” that something imaginary doesn’t exist. If you were to tell me an invisible man was sitting next to you and talking to you and asked me to “provide evidence” that there wasn’t one – well I couldn’t do that either.
The benefits really only become apparent for some people once they are un-indoctrinated. Not all people though. Some people may be happiest believing in UFOs or Thor or imaginary people or God. So be it.
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
How does this explain why muslim women stay muslim or why Western women convert?
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Again, I ask, "How does this explain why muslim women stay muslim or why Western women convert to islam? BTW, interesting conversation, maybe you should start a new thread?
And post the link, so that we can follow, thanks