Proof there is a God

[DaveC426913]

It's not meant to be evidence.

jan.

Right. Which makes it an issue of faith.

Faith is deeply personal, and not transferable.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Right. Which makes it an issue of faith.

Faith is deeply personal, and not transferable.

It has nothing to do with faith.
I can still come to that conclusion by just knowing the basics of what God is defined as.

jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

It has nothing to do with faith.
I can still come to that conclusion by just knowing the basics of what God is defined as.

jan.

Without evidence, how?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

That's good, but it neither defines nor describes God.
Would you care to try again?

Can you repeat the question?

How would you suggest I go about proving God (or something), if not by my own means?
Are you afraid of answering the questions I put to you? Because so far you haven't answered any. Not with any real integrity anyway.

I encourage you to proceed using tools other than the original blunt objects first provided by care givers, disgaurd them and use the wonderful mind you developed in spite of superstitious indoctrination.
And with your first shakey step away from clutered path you tread you will become capable of recognising real and genuine integrity when it is layed bear before you.
But you must do... Trying is just failing over and over such that it becomes a habit.

Why don't you state what it is you don't find substantial, or relevant, and maybe I can put it in a way that prevents your mind from mushifying

I understand the concept of what constitutes something substantial is beyond your grasp and I am at a loss to provide a solution, at least a solution that given your current views you could embrace and make work for you.

Maybe you should apply yourself a little more.
I can't make you aware of something, if you resist, or are in a state of complete denial. There has to be some give on your part.

I am all ears.
But I am worn out from sifting through your words to find something, anything that I can use.
In my favour I dont give up if I can find something I dont already know about it will be worthwhile.
Jan do you sincerely believe you can offer me something you consider worthwhile.

Surrender. That is the key to God-consciousness.
I see no reason to surrender to you (as yet), but if you come with something that is true, then I will surrender. I've no problem with that. Will you do the same with me?

Definetly not. I will not surrender to myself and certainly not to someone who needs my help.

That's my lot for now.

I thought you may say something like that but overall your responces have become predictable and it seems you enjoy the chat and put off the punch line I suppose that you fear the chat will end.
I suspect that is the reason you fail to develope the discussion you keep saying you wish to have.
Thats ok I like you so just let it all out.

Why do you feel the need to explain yourself?

No of course there is no need but I am driven by my need to help unfortunate humans trapped by superstition placed in their minds before they could think for themselves.
But then again why do any of us see verbosity as a virtue and the answer is clear, at least to me, that most folk just love the sound of their own voice.
I love mine because it is wonderful and so Jan I wonder do you also love the sound of your own voice.
Do we agree that verbosity is a virtue and if we can agree upon that I think we can chat forever and as you have noted not get anywhere.

Thank you for your entertaining input but you do realise that it is now me who is sidetracking the OP do you think you have any chance whatsoever of getting it back on track and prove your still to be defined God.

Remember I am just here to help.

Best wishes have a great day yours sincerely
Alex

 

[Daecon]

Without evidence, how?

Jan believes that if s/he doesn't explicitly call it "evidence", then it doesn't count as evidence. Jan has done this sort of thing before.

 

[DaveC426913]

Jan believes that if s/he doesn't explicitly call it "evidence", then it doesn't count as evidence. Jan has done this sort of thing before.

Is this what he means by

It has nothing to do with faith.
I can still come to that conclusion by just knowing the basics of what God is defined as.

i.e. if it is logical to me then I need no objective verification?
That'd be pretty much taking it on faith.

 

[spidergoat]

Arguing with Jan is like hitting a punching bag. It's good practice, but it always comes back completely indifferent to your efforts.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Arguing with Jan is like hitting a punching bag. It's good practice, but it always comes back completely indifferent to your efforts.

Yes but you work up less of a sweat with the punching bag.
Go Jan.
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Without evidence, how?

It helped you understand in some way how, if God did exist, He could control nature, and you don't think there is any evidence for God.
Or maybe you do, on the downlow.

jan.

 

[Daecon]

Then what would be the difference between a Universe with a God and a Universe without a God?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Can you repeat the question?

What is your rational definition of God?
You said you have one.

I encourage you to proceed using tools other than the original blunt objects first provided by care givers, disgaurd them and use the wonderful mind you developed in spite of superstitious indoctrination.

So you're not going to put this childishness aside.
If that is a picture of you, you don't deserve that beard, as beards are most often depicted as a sign of maturity, and wisdom.
Now you're just acting like a lad. Grow up.

I understand the concept of what constitutes something substantial is beyond your grasp and I am at a loss to provide a solution, at least a solution that given your current views you could embrace and make work for you.

Read above.

Jan do you sincerely believe you can offer me something you consider worthwhile.

Yes. Grow up.
Stop acting like an idiot.
I'm telling you this because I like you, and maybe you do have something to offer.

Definetly not. I will not surrender to myself and certainly not to someone who needs my help.

What a stupid statement. You cannot learn anything without surrender. Figure it out.

I thought you may say something like that but overall your responces have become predictable and it seems you enjoy the chat and put off the punch line I suppose that you fear the chat will end.

You're the one who feels the need to apologies for your personality disorder, in order to be accepted into the atheist clan.
If the chat ends, it ends. It's happened many times before, and I'm pretty sure it will happen many more times.

Thank you for your entertaining input but you do realise that it is now me who is sidetracking the OP do you think you have any chance whatsoever of getting it back on track and prove your still to be defined God.

This isn't sidetracking, it's denial. We're still on track.

a) you're eventually going to run out responding stupidly, having to face the real points.

b) you're going to realise that you have nothing more to say, then make up some excuse to bow out of the discussion.
Let's see if I'm right.

Of course you could stop acting silly, trying to gain points from your masters, and engage in an adult conversation. Now that would be nice.

Now then. I've already stated re-stated the question above.
Here are a couple more.

What does eternal represent to you?
Is it something that can be found in nature, or is it something that is understood from within?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Then what would be the difference between a Universe with a God and a Universe without a God?

Can you respond to our previous discourse?

jan.

 

[Baldeee]

It helped you understand in some way how, if God did exist, He could control nature, and you don't think there is any evidence for God.

Apologies but you may have missed my point with regard your analogy... I don't think it is adequate nor do I think it explains anything clearly.
Let me provide again what I said:

The computer in your analogy is not a closed system (it can accept inputs from a user etc)
Everything we understand about the universe suggests that it is a closed system.
Do you have a better analogy, please, as I don't agree with the suitability of this one, and thus can not agree with arguments you make that rely on it?
Thanks.

Any open system can accept inputs, and your attempt to analogise God as somehow being able to provide inputs to our universe requires our universe being an open system.

However, everything we know about our universe suggests it is indeed a closed system.
As a closed system it can accept no inputs from "outside" of the system.

So, please, can you provide a better analogy, as the one you are currently using does not explain what you might wish it to.
Thanks.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

What is your rational definition of God?

I repeat myself but I define God as a made up mythical character.

So you're not going to put this childishness aside.
If that is a picture of you, you don't deserve that beard, as beards are most often depicted as a sign of maturity, and wisdom.
Now you're just acting like a lad. Grow up.

What do you have against children moreover why does childish behaviour upset you or to head you off not upset you.
The last thing I want to appear is wise I dont wish to present as something I am not. That would be dishonest. I grow a beard because I am lazy and sometimes do a santa clause gig even at the risk of being dishonest to the kids. But they like it and as you already know its not about them its about me.. It really is great riding the fire truck thru town with everyone waving. I tell the kids they will get whatever they have asked for to see the look of horror on the parents face and knowing they will have to explain santa is not real or otherwise get the kid a dirt bike. I should have been a priest.

 

[Baldeee]

If that is a picture of you, you don't deserve that beard, as beards are most often depicted as a sign of maturity, and wisdom.

Saying someone doesn't deserve a beard?
Seriously?
That's what you've lowered yourself to?
If you want to complain that someone is being childish, then rise above their level, don't sink to it.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

To continue....

Stop acting like an idiot.

Why do you think I am acting?

You cannot learn anything without surrender.

Mmmmm sweeping generalisations tend to be meaningless but there are specific situations where surender is helpful, I suspect on a serious note you understand perhaps something similar to my doctrine of embracing difficulty rather than fight it, now that does not mean I will surender to superstition and I do not surrender to peer pressure.

You're the one who feels the need to apologies for your personality disorder, in order to be accepted into the atheist clan.

I am proud be able to talk about my problems but I reject any claim I wish to be accepted in a clan... I dont do clans, gang groups or committees obviously because its all about me, why would I seek to be one of the croud.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

There is more...

isn't sidetracking, it's denial. We're still on track.

a) you're eventually going to run out responding stupidly, having to face the real points.

b) you're going to realise that you have nothing more to say, then make up some excuse to bow out of the discussion.
Let's see if I'm right.

Of course you could stop acting silly, trying to gain points from your masters, and engage in an adult conversation. Now that would be nice.

Jan when you start making some points and stop playing I will start to take you seriously. I know you cant handle certain things now I know how I can nail you.
Look if you like I can be dishonest and say I accept your logic on the big question, but that would be dishonest, I like to call a spade a f... ing shovel I cant say I can accept superstition as reality no matter how I may follow the decent principles I found when I read the scriptures.

And masters, I follow masters you must be kidding.. Its all about me... Do you think I would follow a master... Never never never.... Never.

What does eternal represent to you?

I told you it is my reality...
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

I repeat myself but I define God as a made up mythical character.

Define the ''character'' of God.

I told you it is my reality...

Is eternity a fact?

jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

It helped you understand in some way how, if God did exist, He could control nature, and you don't think there is any evidence for God.

OK, I'm beginning to get the picture. It is circular. That's why you present no objective evidence.

 

[Jan Ardena]

OK, I'm beginning to get the picture. It is circular. That's why you present no objective evidence.

What's circular?

jan.