Proof there is a God

[Jan Ardena]

The debate equivalent of

Smoke bomb!

You're still standing there. With no response.

Perfectly reasonable questions, given the subject matter.
What's up? Afraid to answer them?

jan.

 

[Daecon]

You're the one with the reputation for being afraid to answer questions. You just divert, evade, and obfuscate in the hope that people won't notice the games that you play.

 

[Write4U]

I could just as easily say that it is clear that attempting to deny God humans avoid taking personal responsibility for their action so they can act how they like without the need for guilt or remorse.

That is a false statement. The contrary is true.
Atheists have no way of atonement and absolution. They have to live with the knowledge of their sins for the rest of their lives..

Let me guess, now you are going to ask "how would you know what is sinful if not for the Bible?". My answer to that would be, "secular law".

Remember the saying. "ignorance of the law is not a defense", IOW, if you commit a crime, 20 Hail Maries will not be sufficient. You go to jail for say 20 days, depending on the severity of the crime (sin) and that is much worse than counting beads on a Rosary.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Hopefully you will realise, this type of discussion will get us nowhere.

Jan this comes as a complete shock.
Until you pointed this out I was under the impression you were about to open our hearts and our minds to something you are privileged to know and understand.
Now you say our discussion will get us nowhere.
What am I to think.... mmmm.... Wait do you imply by getting no where we in fact will get somewhere.

You should be very happy I take the time to help you grow.
I think you have promise to convert your preoccupation with fantasy to something positive that will free you from the metal prison you find yourself in... Its not your fault and no doubt those who placed their superstitions in your young mind did so in good faith.
Until one developes an independent morality care givers will offer a simple system, such as scriptures, stories etc to help until you grow up and capable of rational appraisal and developement of your own morals.
Now you may ask why should you take my word... well here I can help... My word is the best authority you can use as there is no better and I know this to be true and my opinions can fill many books.... I think I should knock out a few texts given I know best... I have a great imagination it will guide me.

Look I do enjoy mucking around it is fun but I feel I am holding you back from defining god and proving his existence. You say you are on close terms ask him how to handle my, and others, impatience to get some proof on the table. What proof you ask will satisfy me geez how can I know but ask him and given he will guide you we shall get proof.

Sorry I could not be more entertaining but the material is getting a little tired and the followers of this thread want meat with the salad.... So what have you got... No doubt it will be well done.

I hope I havent been offensive it is easy to overstep the mark forgive me if I have done that.

Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sorry I could not be more entertaining but the material is getting a little tired and the followers of this thread want meat with the salad.... So what have you got... No doubt it will be well done.

I hope I havent been offensive it is easy to overstep the mark forgive me if I have done that.

Alex

I don'tk now what to make of your newly revealed character. It is certainly most interesting. It is like trying to talk to a cry baby. No matter what is said, you just keep on crying. You are definitely entertaining.

I can see why you were reluctant to be youself. Do you suffer from narcissism? Or something similar.

I would ask you to resort to your
previous state, as it was possible to hold a conversation with you, but I think you've progressed from dipping you toes, to a full , deluxe body emerge, in the ocean of me, myself, and I. Now it's just Alex show.

I will try and pick out bits that are relevant, in the hope of carrying on the discussion.

Jan this comes as a complete shock.
Until you pointed this out I was under the impression you were about to open our hearts and our minds to something you are privileged to know and understand.

Preoccupation with only one's own world will tend to bring you to a shocking reality. Maybe now you will actually read what I write, so you can avoid such shocks in the future.

Now you say our discussion will get us nowhere.
What am I to think.... mmmm.... Wait do you imply by getting no where we in fact will get somewhere.

What makes you think talking at one another is going to do.
How far do you thing we will we get on just giving opinions?

You should be very happy I take the time to help you grow.

I would be, if you had something that could do that.

I think you have promise to convert your preoccupation with fantasy to something positive that will free you from the metal prison you find yourself in...

I'll take it you meant mental prison.
Well the first step in getting out of the mental prison, is to realise that your in a mental prison, and I don't mind admitting that I am in a mental prison. Truth be told, we are all in such a state, which is why some of us try to link with the truth. Why? Because the truth shall set you free (where have I heard that before).
What about you Alex? Do you believe yourself to be free?

Its not your fault and no doubt those who placed their superstitions in your young mind did so in good faith.

This is what I mean about getting somewhere, or not, in this discussion. You have to input material like this in order to do whatever it is you are doing. But I cannot respond to this. In fact with comments like this, you don't need me in this discussion.

Now you may ask why should you take my word...

Why should I take your word?

My word is the best authority you can use as there is no better

Okay...

as there is no better

Really?
I beg to differ on that.

and I know this to be true

Okay...

and my opinions can fill many books....

How fascinating.

I think I should knock out a few texts given I know best... I have a great imagination it will guide me.

Interesting.

Look I do enjoy mucking around it is fun but I feel I am holding you back from defining god and proving his existence.

No, go right ahead. I can attempt to prove His existence any time.
I find you far more interesting.

You say you are on close terms

Did I?
Where?

ask him how to handle my, and others, impatience to get some proof on the table.

I don't need to ask God to answer that.
Develop your patience. You can't know anything if you are impatient.
Unless you are as great as you describe yourself to be.

What proof you ask will satisfy me geez how can I know.

You mean what ''evidence'' would you accept that God is real.
What? You haven't thought about it?
Actually I'm not surprised. You're far too preoccupied.

Anyway, what is your reasonable definition/description of God?
You did say you have one.

Sorry I could not be more entertaining but the material is getting a little tired and the followers of this thread want meat with the salad.... So what have you got... No doubt it will be well done.

I thought you did very well in the entertainment department.

I'm just going to plod on with what I'm doing. Patience is the key.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're the one with the reputation for being afraid to answer questions. You just divert, evade, and obfuscate in the hope that people won't notice the games that you play.

Okay. Give me one question which I have been afraid to answer.
Then after I'll give you a few which you have been afraid to answer. Then we'll take it from there. Agreed?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That is a false statement. The contrary is true.
Atheists have no way of atonement and absolution. They have to live with the knowledge of their sins for the rest of their lives..

Let me guess, now you are going to ask "how would you know what is sinful if not for the Bible?". My answer to that would be, "secular law".

Remember the saying. "ignorance of the law is not a defense", IOW, if you commit a crime, 20 Hail Maries will not be sufficient. You go to jail for say 20 days, depending on the severity of the crime (sin) and that is much worse than counting beads on a Rosary.

We all have to live in a society where there are laws. Even gangland society. But those aren't the transgression I'm talking about.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Some of it I have. That was why I was confused by your idea that the scriprures define god since they are mutually contradictory.

Regarding God, how are the scriptures mutually contradictory?

Let re-state my example: Is there an Off Earth heaven, hell, angels or not? (Some say, yes and others say no). You will not be clear in your answer.

Are you discussing religion, or God.
If you are discussing religion, then ask a religious person, if we are talking about God, then find a scripture that explains the details of this universe, then we can discuss it.

jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I don'tk now what to make of your newly revealed character. It is certainly most interesting. It is like trying to talk to a cry baby. No matter what is said, you just keep on crying. You are definitely entertaining.

Thank you I opened a chink in your armour.

I can see why you were reluctant to be youself. Do you suffer from narcissism? Or something similar.

I would ask you to resort to your
previous state, as it was possible to hold a conversation with you, but I think you've progressed from dipping you toes, to a full , deluxe body emerge, in the ocean of me, myself, and I. Now it's just Alex show.

So long as it all about me I will be happy. I know what strings to pull now.

This is what I mean about getting somewhere, or not, in this discussion. You have to input material like this in order to do whatever it is you are doing. But I cannot respond to this. In fact with comments like this, you don't need me in this discussion.

Another chink in your armour.
Give in now so we can be friends.

I don't need to ask God to answer that.
Develop your patience. You can't know anything if you are impatient.
Unless you are as great as you describe yourself to be.

Of course I am I know it you know it... Wonderful is it not.

Anyway, what is your reasonable definition/description of God?
You did say you have one.

A made up mythical character.

I thought you did very well in the entertainment department.

I'm just going to plod on with what I'm doing. Patience is the key.

Yes I can see what you mean. You drain everyones patience by talking in circles redirecting attention from the OP which was something about proving god or something. My mine is turning to mush trying to find substance and relevence in your posts.
I guess you think you are fooling folk but you are only fooling yourself and I find the game entertaining but unfortunately not informative.

Nevertheless side step the issue which was covered in the OP whilst I slip into my next character you chose to see me as.... But know this I have your number now is the time to do your best or surrender.

Show me more I think I know your next move I cant wait to see if I am right.

Alex

 

[Sarkus]

A most enjoyable fishing expedition, Alex. . Although I am surprised it took until you landed him in the boat to realise that he was being played. Some sturdy hooks, those compliments.
Unfortunately we do work on a "catch and release" basis here, so back into the pond he has to go.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

A most enjoyable fishing expedition, Alex. . Although I am surprised it took until you landed him in the boat to realise that he was being played. Some sturdy hooks, those compliments.
Unfortunately we do work on a "catch and release" basis here, so back into the pond he has to go.

I was sincere with my compliments.
I respect Jan and was touched by many of the posts because I senced a genuine commitment and determination to help me.

Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Thank you I opened a chink in your armour.

You did.
Let the games begin.

Another chink in your armour.
Give in now so we can be friends.

What? And miss out on what promises to be a good discussion?

Of course I am I know it you know it... Wonderful is it not.

Absolutely.

A made up mythical character.

That's good, but it neither defines nor describes God.
Would you care to try again?

Yes I can see what you mean. You drain everyones patience by talking in circles redirecting attention from the OP which was something about proving god or something.

How would you suggest I go about proving God (or something), if not by my own means?
Are you afraid of answering the questions I put to you? Because so far you haven't answered any. Not with any real integrity anyway.

 

[Jan Ardena]

My mine is turning to mush trying to find substance and relevence in your posts.

Why don't you state what it is you don't find substantial, or relevant, and maybe I can put it in a way that prevents your mind from mushifying?

I guess you think you are fooling folk but you are only fooling yourself and I find the game entertaining but unfortunately not informative.

Maybe you should apply yourself a little more.
I can't make you aware of something, if you resist, or are in a state of complete denial. There has to be some give on your part.

Nevertheless side step the issue which was covered in the OP whilst I slip into my next character you chose to see me as.... But know this I have your number now is the time to do your best or surrender.

I don't necessarily agree with the concept of the op, but am willing to attempt the title of the thread. Isn't that what these forums are for, to discuss and debate? You seem very averse to that concept, and I wonder why.

But know this I have your number now is the time to do your best or surrender.

Surrender. That is the key to God-consciousness.
I see no reason to surrender to you (as yet), but if you come with something that is true, then I will surrender. I've no problem with that. Will you do the same with me?

Show me more I think I know your next move I cant wait to see if I am right.

Alex

That's my lot for now.

I was sincere with my compliments.
I respect Jan and was touched by many of the posts because I senced a genuine commitment and determination to help me.

Why do you feel the need to explain yourself?

jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

Perfectly reasonable questions, given the subject matter.
What's up? Afraid to answer them?

Explain how they inform the subject at-hand, as opposed to being a mere deflection from the issue.

You've acknowledged that God is by definition, supernatural - beyond/outside/above nature. That is the acknowledgement, regardless of your equivocating.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Explain how they inform the subject at-hand, as opposed to being a mere deflection from the issue.

You've acknowledged that God is by definition, supernatural - beyond/outside/above nature. That is the acknowledgement, regardless of your equivocating.

As long as don't insist nature IS the laws of nature, we can agree on that.

It informs the subject at hand in the form of an analogy.
This post is from you, but it isn't you. You don't live inside the computer, and you are not affected by it's laws, but you can manipulate it. God is understood to exist in the same way with regard to nature.

Does that help?

jan.

 

[Billy T]

... find a scripture that explains the details of this universe, then we can discuss it. jan.

OK lets start will a simple (I believe false) statement:
"On the fourth day, God commanded that there be lights in the sky to separate day and night. He made the sun, moon and stars to separate light from darkness (Gen. 1:14-18)."

We know our sun is one of the last made - not like the early ones which are 100s of times more massive, as they were made back when the universe was smaller and the gas clouds, which stars evolve from, were much more massive. We also know the Earth did not originally have moon.

We have well developed theory of the evolution of the universe after the "Big Bang." Are you saying it is all wrong? I. e. When the original very hot universe cooled some, then quarks could form, etc

We know the moon is separating from the earth and we can know it was once much closer, by analysis of this dymanics; but "The Moon probably couldn't have formed closer than 3 Earth radii because tidal forces from the Earth would just pull it apart again, and it is unlikely that the impact could have ejected material further than 5 Earth radii." Quote from:
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...moon-to-the-earth-when-it-formed-intermediate

SUMMARY: Nothing in Gen. 1:14-18 is consistent with scientific fact.

 

[DaveC426913]

It informs the subject at hand in the form of an analogy.
This post is from you, but it isn't you. You don't live inside the computer, and you are not affected by it's laws, but you can manipulate it. God is understood to exist in the same way with regard to nature.

Does that help?

That helps.

And yes, it is possible to construct a model of the universe in which God moves in mysterious ways. That's the thing, you construct a universe in which invisible dragons live in Sagan's garage, too.
That's not compelling evidence that such a dragon - or such a God - really exists.

 

[pluto2]

There is no proof for God's existence because the evidence shows that there really isn't any.

Also the fact that no one came back to life after they have died is proof enough for me that there isn't a God.

Also the fact that we haven't found any intelligent life in the Universe could also be proof that there is no God. This again proves that the universe is too hostile for life, which would have not been the case if God really existed.

This is called the Fermi paradox:

http://gizmodo.com/new-solution-to-fermi-paradox-suggests-alien-life-goes-1754307235

 

[Baldeee]

This post is from you, but it isn't you. You don't live inside the computer, and you are not affected by it's laws, but you can manipulate it. God is understood to exist in the same way with regard to nature.

The computer in your analogy is not a closed system (it can accept inputs from a user etc)
Everything we understand about the universe suggests that it is a closed system.
Do you have a better analogy, please, as I don't agree with the suitability of this one, and thus can not agree with arguments you make that rely on it?
Thanks.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That helps.

And yes, it is possible to construct a model of the universe in which God moves in mysterious ways. That's the thing, you construct a universe in which invisible dragons live in Sagan's garage, too.
That's not compelling evidence that such a dragon - or such a God - really exists.

It's not meant to be evidence.

jan.