"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

scifes said:
that's coercion of some sort, you see, you know what god knows you're gonna choose, so you can't but choose it, you have to choose A, cuz god knows you're gonna choose it.
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No it isn't coercion of any sort: it doesn't matter whether we know that god knows it or not.
If the future is known it must be fixed. If it's fixed we don't have choices.

but, the key matter is that we don't know what god knows, and hence we're to-tal-ly independent of what he knows, it's as if he isn't there(;)).
you get it now?
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Wrong again: see above.

if god told us what we are predestined to pick;
only what god knows i will pick, which is A.
on the other hand, if god did not tell us what he predestined us to pick;
i can pick either:shrug:
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No you can't, because if you pick the one that god says you weren't going to pick then that means god was wrong and that he didn't know.

for a moment let's pretend that god exists, and that he predetermined what would happen in this world, how does that stop me from choosing whether i brush my teeth before i sleep or not?
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Because if it's pre-determined then you didn't choose.

are you going to say;"IF god predestined you to brush them, you sure as hell won't sleep till you brushed them, one friggin way or another"?
then i'd agree, BUT, you said, "IF", now what is the alternative to that "IF" being true?
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If it's predestined then choice is an illusion...

now i, when i was about 15 years old i guess, was puzzled and baffled by this, i wanted to try, to experiment, to go against god's predetermination, i wanted to go off the rail, try doing something i couldn't, something i shouldn't, go off god's script..
:scratchin:...
but where's the script?
how can i go against something i don't know?
how can i claim to be bound to something i don't know, if i want to break from it?
was i supposed to brush my teeth or not, according to god's plan?
.....
....
...
..
.
"ahh f*** it, i'll just do what i want"..
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Exactly: if god knows (i.e. it's predetermined) then whatever you do (even if you think you're making random choices) aren't choices since it was already written down that it would happen.
You're following a script - which is fixed - even though you haven't read it.
And you can't deviate from that script, because whatever you choose was decided beforehand.
 
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Dywyddyr said:
Answer the question: if god knows you're going to pick A how can you pick B?
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In the context of this thread, that is one of the toughest questions ever asked in the Religion sub-forum. I'm jealous that I never thought of it. I hope the answer is just as good.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
In the context of this thread, that is one of the toughest questions ever asked in the Religion sub-forum. I'm jealous that I never thought of it.
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No need to be that jealous.
When I die I'll leave you my brains in my will. Then you can think of questions like that. ;)
 
Dywyddyr said:
No need to be that jealous.
When I die I'll leave you my brains in my will. Then you can think of questions like that. ;)
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No problem, I'll put it up on the shelf next to my @#$^%$&! collection:D. Sorry, my reply got a little garbled there;). I thought I had some good questions in the Creation thread that theists shied away from. Every now and then you see a good question and say to yourself. 'Man , I've got to remember that". So yes, your question to Scifes is one of those. If theists can't answer a question or they avoid it altogether then it most certainly qualifies as worthy. I just hope Scifes doesn't pull an LG and say we can't comprehend God or His ways. I have my fingers crossed that he comes in with something good but for the life of me I don't know how.
 
Lucysnow said:
No people I haven't suddenly turned to Jesus but Scifes asked me to post this for him. It addresses some comments and ideas previously made while sparring with Cris.

*knowing the result of a given choice doesn't stop it from being taken
out of free will.

You give your cat two bowls of food, you know which one it'll choose,
doesn't mean it didn't choose it out of its free will.

*a given choice having a set of predetermined results means nothing
for the one taking the choice if he didn't know the predetermined
result assigned to him.

An entity A exists in the universe, A has true real free will, it uses
it to make a choice, another entity B billions of light years away
takes a look into a telescope and says "I knew it", entity A doesn't
hear entity B.

*one putting another in a scenario where he knows the subject will
make a negative choice out of his free will, is not an unjust action,
because the subject DID choose it out of his free will and wasn't
forced so the blame is exclusively on him, but such action is
naturally questionable.God's actions are unquestionable, both because we can do nothing about them, also because he has no needs to fulfill, all his actions are doing as he wants to.

you give your brother a chocolate cake and a salad dish to choose
from. You know he'll choose the cake. But it is not your fault that he
chose it. Nor are you unjust for letting him make the choice.

In conclusion: we determine which predetermined destiny to end up
with. We simply make the choice. whatever we choose, becomes/turnes
out to be our predetermined destiny.

quotes:
"Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of
Jesus as a savior is predetermined"

But unknown.

"Effectively we have no choice in the matter."
Please demonstrate.

"Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the
will of God"

What if god's will is for us to have a will of our own, displayed in
the ability to disbelieve in him, to kill and rape..?

"Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome
of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be
omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions"

The outcome of our decisions is predetermined but not coerced; god is
omniscient but exclusively so.

"If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born,
regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does
he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set
destined for eternal damnation?"

Valid question.
"This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil"

Not if the set of individuals reached their predestined destiny with
their own free will.
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I do not like to see people go to hell, but it is not my will that happens. God does not enjoy sending people to hell, but it must be done.

Peter 3:9 (New International Version)

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Romans 8:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
 
I could interpret that to mean, "no one comes to enlightenment except in the same way I did".
 
Try Again said:
God does not enjoy sending people to hell, but it must be done.
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Of course he likes it. He decided from the start who was going and who wasn't, and then set us up to go (or not).

Romans 8:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
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Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
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Your own quotes condemn god as an arrogant sadist.
 
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Try Again said:
I do not like to see people go to hell, but it is not my will that happens. God does not enjoy sending people to hell, but it must be done.
*************
M*W: How many people have you actually seen go to hell? Did they get back with you on that? Those wonderful folks down at the patriarchy (you know, the ones who created your god as a work of fiction), also created hell for the sole purpose of riddling human beings into guilt.

Give it up. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Medicine*Woman said:
Try Again said:
I do not like to see people go to hell, but it is not my will that happens. God does not enjoy sending people to hell, but it must be done.
*************
M*W: How many people have you actually seen go to hell? Did they get back with you on that? Those wonderful folks down at the patriarchy (you know, the ones who created your god as a work of fiction), also created hell for the sole purpose of riddling human beings into guilt.

Give it up. You don't know what you're talking about.
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*Headed on the path to hell :)
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scifes,

cris, please tell us what you think of my entity a and entity b example,
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OK.

a given choice having a set of predetermined results means nothing
for the one taking the choice if he didn't know the predetermined
result assigned to him.
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If a result is predetermined then there can be no choice. A choice implies multiple possible results. A predetermined result means there is only a single outcome. The terms "choice" and "predetermined" are mutually exclusive.

"taking the choice" can be no more than an illusion since there is only one possible outcome.

"means nothing"? So, your point?

"result assigned to him"? What does this mean?

An entity A exists in the universe, A has true real free will, it uses
it to make a choice, another entity B billions of light years away
takes a look into a telescope and says "I knew it", entity A doesn't
hear entity B.
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Sounds like a good guess. How does this debunk the paradox between predetermined events and free will?
 
scifes,

does the external coercion exist because of the knowledge?
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If something has the ability to know future events there is no essential implication that the existence of the knowledge would cause the event.
 
scifes,

choice is independent of knowledge, especially when the chooser doesn't have access to said knowledge,
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You haven't understood the argument yet. If the knowledge exists then there is no choice. As I have said many times the two conditions are mutually exclusive. Either there is a free choice and there is no knowledge, or there is knowledge and hence there is no choice. The two conditions cannot coexist.
 
Try again,

I do not like to see people go to hell, but it is not my will that happens. God does not enjoy sending people to hell, but it must be done.
Click to expand...
That's an admission that God does not exist. He is characterized as omnipotent (all powerful), i.e. if he really doesn't want people to go to hell he has the power to create the scenario where they do not. If he chooses not to use that power then it must be because he does want people to suffer. To deliberately cause people to suffer needlessly is evil and that is a direct contradiction to his other claimed characteristic that God is omnibenevolent (all good). Either he is not all powerful and is therefore impotent, or he is evil. Either way the claims for such a god cannot be met and hence he cannot actually exist.

Peter 3:9 (New International Version)

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
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But only because of the scenario that he artificially created. Had he not wanted people to sin he could have created us with the wisdom and knowledge to understand the issues clearly so that sinning would always be avoided. Since he chose to create us imperfect then it is because he did want us to sin. Either way he is the direct result of our actions because of his design and hence we cannot be held accountable for his despotic nature.

Ephesians 1

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
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Looks like preaching and is irrelevant to the thread topic.

Please stay on topic or have your posts deleted.
 
Cris said:
scifes,

You haven't understood the argument yet. If the knowledge exists then there is no choice. As I have said many times the two conditions are mutually exclusive. Either there is a free choice and there is no knowledge, or there is knowledge and hence there is no choice. The two conditions cannot coexist.
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ok,
give me a model of a choice made out of free will, even if it was an imaginary one.
 
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