IT DOESN'T MATTER!
If it's in the past then it's FIXED.
If it was known before we made it then it wasn't a choice.
Repeating inanities doesn't stop them being inane, nor does it invalidate the argument.
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist
- Thread starter Cris
- Start date
If it's in the past then it's FIXED.
If it was known before we made it then it wasn't a choice.
Repeating inanities doesn't stop them being inane, nor does it invalidate the argument.
When God looked into our Future, he saw our free will choices. We aren't doing the same thing twice.. we are still doing the first time line.. our free will choices.
Anyway, this is like that bendy wheel thing. We are trying to calculate some God like physics. It is better to stick with real physics.
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You're STILL repeating the same ridiculous ineffective argument.
Of course we're not doing the same thing twice.
If it's in the past (to god, or anyone) then it's fixed.
If it is KNOWN what we will do then we can, by definition, do only that.
If it is known before-hand then free will does not exist.
You're STILL repeating the same ridiculous ineffective argument.
Of course we're not doing the same thing twice.
If it's in the past (to god, or anyone) then it's fixed.
If it is KNOWN what we will do then we can, by definition, do only that.
If it is known before-hand then free will does not exist.
Not in time, that's different to to cause and effect. It doesn't matter anyway. Time travel doesn't exist. We may as well not think about it.
Specious.
You still haven't addressed the logic.
So god can't "time travel"?
Then why did you bring it up?
:shrug:
God doesn't exist. The thread was about Christian God so I brought up Christian God's powers.
Supposition.
Yup. And without actually addressing the logic or the paradox.
Well done.
The Paradox is in your head, you are trying to make none physics work as physics.
Yet you STILL can't point out why it's not a paradox.
It's not in my head. the two abilities under discussion are mutually exclusive. They can't both be true at the same time, yet they are claimed to be. That is the paradox.
And wrong again.
No physics required and none used.
Simply logic (which you have consistently failed to refute).
You keep saying.. because A knows C, B must do C.
But they are in the wrong order..
B does C, and then A sees B do C then A goes back to the beginning.
Wrong.
Time travel not required. (And, as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, if time travel were involved then we're talking about a fixed past - still a fail on your part).
Read the f*cking argument. Address the logic presented.
Here it is again:
1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.
If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.
3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.
The thing is that if you are Omnipresent you know everything but not in the right order, so you are also Omniscient, and Wikipedia includes that version of omniscient....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience
So what?
Omnipresence wasn't mentioned.
And your quote was about the possibility of the creation of knowledge by omniscience, which was ALSO not brought up in the OP.
Consistent, though... yet another failure to address the argument.
So... you are saying that God got knowledge from what source?
Also irrelevant.
How god got his knowledge is not, AFAIK, addressed in the bible. I think it's just an attribute: he knows because he's, er, god.
It doesn't matter where he got the knowledge.
The fact remains, as I pointed out to GeoffP a few posts back, that if the knowledge is available AT ALL then free will is dead.
Another diversion...
A time loop is allowed but not some form of figuring out. That would contradict Free Will, and Christians state Free Will so you can't use it.
What?
Why?
Why does "some sort of figuring out" and not "just knowing" contradict free will?
And now you're beginning to see the paradox.
Omniscience and free will contradict each other.
What?
Why?
Why does "some sort of figuring out" and not "just knowing" contradict free will?
And now you're beginning to see the paradox.
Omniscience and free will contradict each other.
Knowledge by working out means that we are not random. Knowledge by looking into our future allows randomness. I can't work out the Lotto numbers but I can look at them in the future. But you are supposed to stick to Christian beliefs, so we can't use the none random version.. Christians believe in Free Will.
I've never heard of God knowing things without looking into the future before.
purethought
Registered Senior Member
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.
This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.
Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.
Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.
Proposal:
Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.
Reasoning:
If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.
Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.
Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.
Question:
If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.
Conclusions:
If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.
If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.
If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.
This thread was started on 6/21/2001 it has been debated for 10 years on this thread.
If you are interested please enter the word ‘Omniscience’ in any search engine and read the search results on the Wikipedia encyclopedia. It pretty much gives good insight into the subject that seems to be in stalemate.
This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.
Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.
Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.
Proposal:
Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.
Reasoning:
If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.
Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.
Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.
Question:
If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.
Conclusions:
If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.
If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.
If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.
This thread was started on 6/21/2001 it has been debated for 10 years on this thread.
If you are interested please enter the word ‘Omniscience’ in any search engine and read the search results on the Wikipedia encyclopedia. It pretty much gives good insight into the subject that seems to be in stalemate.