Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Dywyddyr]

What is the practical impact of this concern?

Practical aspect?

Dunno. Maybe causing a re-think on what god is? (Although I doubt that'll happen).
Personally I'm just waiting for someone to show a flaw in the logic, which, despite claims from a number here: - Jan Ardena, Knowledge91, Pincho and maybe a couple of others (each of whom has merely reiterated the claim and effectively said "that's just how it is"), has not so far been done.


As far as I'm concerned it's an exercise in thinking and logic.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Why? Why would that be the corollary? What are the assumptions needed to arrive at this corollary?

Because if god knew everything beforehand then he already knew who was going to be saved and who wasn't.
The whole exercise then becomes one of god "running the experiment" simply to watch us suffer and fail (those that do).
Better, and more benevolent by far, simply to create those who would be saved (only), put them in heaven and miss out all the intermediary steps.
It means that every evil act and every misery visited upon us was done knowingly and to no actual purpose.

 

[arauca]

Try to read the OP.


Try to reread what I have actually stated.


Wrong.

Since you can't be bothered to read the thread, or even read (or understand the OP) I'll represent it for you.

1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.


A paradox is "X AND Y = inconsistent" therefore X OR Y must be wrong. Got it yet? One OR the other.

Why are you bothering if God exist or not ? If you don't believe that is ok but stop preaching you atheism ,

 

[wynn]

As far as I'm concerned it's an exercise in thinking and logic.

Sure, but it is an exercise that also gives you the heeby jeebies, right?
And, on occasion, a decent bout of anxiety that keeps you awake at night...

 

[wynn]

Because if god knew everything beforehand then he already knew who was going to be saved and who wasn't.
The whole exercise then becomes one of god "running the experiment" simply to watch us suffer and fail (those that do).
Better, and more benevolent by far, simply to create those who would be saved (only), put them in heaven and miss out all the intermediary steps.
It means that every evil act and every misery visited upon us was done knowingly and to no actual purpose.

This is the corollary for some Abrahamic religions, but not for all theisms.

 

[wynn]

Why are you bothering if God exist or not ? If you don't believe that is ok but stop preaching you atheism ,

Why are you so hard-hearted and so shallow?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Why are you bothering if God exist or not ?

Because it shows how ridiculous the claims of the bible are.

If you don't believe that is ok but stop preaching you atheism

And, once again, you're incorrect.
1) I'm pointing out inconsistencies in theists claims. Surely you don't want stupid sheep-like believers? (Or do you?)
2) I'm not actually preaching since, not only am I not simply making claims which I demand to be taken at face value, I'm ASKING for someone to point out where (if they exist) my errors are.

Either contribute or stop whining.

 

[Dywyddyr]

This is the corollary for some Abrahamic religions, but not for all theisms.

Stipulated, but the OP (and thread title) does state, specifically, the Christian god.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Personally I'm just waiting for someone to show a flaw in the logic, which, despite claims from a number here: - Jan Ardena, Knowledge91, Pincho and maybe a couple of others (each of whom has merely reiterated the claim and effectively said "that's just how it is"), has not so far been done.

And Arauca just pops up and whines plaintively now and again.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Wrong. Read the OP.
The corollary of us not having free is that god therefore is not omnibenevolent.
Which negates his existence. But the omniscience vs. free will is an either/ or logic.


Covered it?
No, you have made unsupported claims.
Fail again.


No I didn't. Please try to address what I actually write.


Not on the omniscience vs. free will. It's either/ or.

So we are down to just the loophole now. Simple.. does Free Will allow coercion. Of course it does. Were we taught the Bible by our parents?.. Probably. Did that alter our lives?.. probably. At an early age we believe in Hell, so it forks our path. But do our parents take our Free Will away?

Parents = teach us Bible.
Free Will = Our choices in life.
Coercion = Fear of Hell.

Can you have a fear of Hell, and still kill somebody? Yes!
Can you be a Christian, and still be a Paedophile? Yes!

Does coercion end Free Will.. No.

Can God have Omniscience and coerce us without taking away our Free Will?

Yes, based on the fact that we can still live our lives, and make choices even if God knows what those choices are. He can make us fear things, but so did our parents.

 

[wynn]

Dunno. Maybe causing a re-think on what god is? (Although I doubt that'll happen).

Will it happen for you yourself?

Personally I'm just waiting for someone to show a flaw in the logic, which, despite claims from a number here: - Jan Ardena, Knowledge91, Pincho and maybe a couple of others (each of whom has merely reiterated the claim and effectively said "that's just how it is"), has not so far been done.

I don't see any flaws in it.

What I find more interesting is how theists defend free will, and what I am even more interested in is their motivation for doing so. But somehow, they refuse to talk about it openly!

 

[Dywyddyr]

Will it happen for you yourself?

I haven't made any claims on what god is.
But it does sort of reinforce my lack of belief...

What I find more interesting is how theists defend free will, and what I am even more interested in is their motivation for doing so. But somehow, they refuse to talk about it openly!

I agree. They ALL, without exception, seem to insist (sans evidence) that we have it.
Maybe if they thought otherwise then they'd have to accept that atheists were meant to be atheists.

 

[Dywyddyr]

So we are down to just the loophole now.

What loophole?
You have yet to show that there is one.

Simple.. does Free Will allow coercion.

Not under dispute and irrelevant to the logic presented.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

What loophole?
You have yet to show that there is one.


Not under dispute and irrelevant to the logic presented.

The paradox includes coercion several times. OK re-write the Paradox to include what you think it is.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What loophole?
You seem to keep forgetting to show that there is one.

The paradox includes coercion several times.

As for coercion, no, the PARADOX doesn't.
Cris may have used the word, but, as I have shown, coercion is not required.

OK re-write the Paradox to include what you think it is.

Maybe you're forgetting I already did that...
Post #1694:

1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.

No coercion whatsoever.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.

So there is the loophole... Knowing that we will do A we can still do A with Free Will.

 

[Dywyddyr]

So there is the loophole.

No.

Knowing that we will do A we can still do A with Free Will.

What?
1) We don't know what we'll do.
2) How is doing what we know we're going to do (if we did know it) without being able to do anything else free will?

If we can ONLY do A then we do not, by definition, have free will, since we cannot, ever, under any circumstance, do otherwise.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

No.


What?
1) We don't know what we'll do.
2) How is doing what we know we're going to do (if we did know it) without being able to do anything else free will?

If we can ONLY do A then we do not, by definition, have free will, since we cannot, ever, under any circumstance, do otherwise.

God glimpses where our Free Will led us.

 

[Dywyddyr]

God glimpses where our Free Will led us.

Still a fail.
God is claimed to know what we will do even before we are born.
Even if that were not the case, if he knows even just before we make a "choice" what we will choose then we're back to it not being a choice after all.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Still a fail.
God is claimed to know what we will do even before we are born.
Even if that were not the case, if he knows even just before we make a "choice" what we will choose then we're back to it not being a choice after all.

God knowing what we will do in advance is still allowing us to do it with Free Will. You are on a pre-destined path created by yourself.