Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Actually, one line of theistic reasoning is that free will is not affected by durress.
Our mental and other resources may be affected by durress, but not free will itself.

This reveals the assumption that free will is something that is unaffected by anything material, and as such, always applies. Ie. material phenomena cannot diminish our free will.

Thus it can also be argued that as far as material things are concerned, they are irrelevant to our free will and our free will is irrelevant to them; the two are merely circumstantial to eachother, but not causal.
(E.g. it is not my free will that causes me to eat an orange or plant flowers in the garden.)

Usually, when we talk about free will, however, we talk about it in relation to material things. We say that if one cannot do something, this indicates a lack of free will.
But this is wrong reasoning. If I cann't eat ten kilos of oranges at once, this does not indicate my lack of free will, it indicates that there are limits both to how many oranges my stomach can take and to how much strain I am ready to put on my body in the course of eating.
Usually, the things we consider to be proof of a lack of free will, are actually a matter of limited resources.

So to get back to the apparent mutual exclusivity of God's omniscience and our free will:
As per above reasoning, that God knows all of our material actions and that those are determined has no bearing on our free will, because material actions have no bearing on our free will to begin with.

The only sphere of action where free will would really apply, is the non-material, the spiritual.

There are a few problems with this and some points to make:

1. We are not always in touch with the spiritual, we often don't know what it is.

2. We are used to acting in the material world, with all its limitations, and thus, we tend to believe our free will is limited or non-existent.

3. If the spiritual is our true identity (given by God), then when we act in line with the spiritual, we are acting in line with our true identity. Surely God has omniscience of this too. But in this case, God's omniscience does not imply the same kind of determinism as with material actions.

When we act in line with out true identity, this is indeed a kind of determinism, but it is a kind of determinism as in, say, that scissors are made for cutting, or that a clock is made to show the time, or that oranges are orange. It is simply a matter of the identity of scissors that they are made for cutting, or that a clock is made to show the time, or that oranges are orange. We do not see "made for cutting," "made to show the time," or "being orange" as a diminishing of the identity of scissors, clocks or oranges, nor do we see it as an unnatural determinism.

In a similar manner, the decisions we actually make in relation to God, are in a sense determined by our identity. This identity being given to us by God.

We must be careful though not to confuse the spiritual and the material.
A good sign that such confusion is taking place: if we deem that our choices regarding God are limited, then we have confused something material to be the spiritual.
 
God knowing what we will do in advance is still allowing us to do it with Free Will.
One more time: if he knows what we are going to do then we don't have a choice because we can ONLY "choose" the single option that he knows we will pick.
If he knows we will have an apple then we CANNOT "choose" to have a banana, an orange, a pear or anything else. We can ONLY "choose" an apple. Therefore we had no actual choice.
If there is no choice then "free will" is a myth, it's merely a comforting delusion.

:rolleyes:

Simply repeating the same flawed claim (without support) does NOT refute the argument.

You are on a pre-destined path created by yourself.
Supposition. And a fail, how do I create that path before I'm born?
 
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If we can ONLY do A then we do not, by definition, have free will, since we cannot, ever, under any circumstance, do otherwise.

When A is in line with our true identity, then the problem of free will does not apply.

Oranges can only be orange. If they wouldn't be orange, they wouldn't be oranges.
 
Actually, one line of theistic reasoning is that free will is not affected by durress.
No duress required.

3. If the spiritual is our true identity (given by God), then when we act in line with the spiritual, we are acting in line with our true identity. Surely God has omniscience of this too. But in this case, God's omniscience does not imply the same kind of determinism as with material actions.
But exactly the same argument applies.
If we act only in accordance with our nature/ true identity, and that nature/ identity is completely known to god then, omniscience being what it is, we can still only do what god knows we will do.
No free will. Again. ;)

When we act in line with out true identity, this is indeed a kind of determinism, but it is a kind of determinism as in, say, that scissors are made for cutting
Exactly. We're not under duress, we're simply acting according to our (fixed) natures. We're simply acting out a pre-written script. One which we happen to be unaware of.
 
One more time: if he knows what we are going to do then we don't have a choice because we can ONLY "choose" the single option that he knows we will pick.
If he knows we will have an apple then we CANNOT "choose" to have a banana, an orange, a pear or anything else. We can ONLY "choose" an apple. Therefore we had no actual choice.
If there is no choice then "free will" is a myth, it's merely a comforting delusion.

:rolleyes:

Simply repeating the same flawed claim (without support) does NOT refute the argument.

You are on a pre-destined path created by yourself. So even though you have to choose the apple, it was you who originally chose the apple, because you are looking at a time loop. So if you originally chose the apple then God would see that. I am now in my own future from Yesterday. Yesterday I played The Beetles on the Keyboard. I know that I did it, but I did not create that thought today when I had the memory of doing it. I created the thought before I did it. Because I know about yesterday, it does not remove yesterday's free will.
 
But exactly the same argument applies.

It doesn't.
We don't see it as a problem that oranges are orange. We expect them to be orange. If they wouldn't be orange, they wouldn't be oranges.


If we act only in accordance with our nature/ true identity, and that nature/ identity is completely known to god then, omniscience being what it is, we can still only do what god knows we will do.
No free will.

Exactly. We're not under duress, we're simply acting according to our (fixed) natures. We're simply acting out a pre-written script. One which we happen to be unaware of.

Except that in this case, we are that script, so to speak.


Your assumption seems to be that free will would exist only if there would be no identity whatsoever, nothing preset, no givens.

But without identity, how can there be desire, how can there be values?
Based on what would we choose, apply our free will, if there would, in effect, be no us? And who would be there to carry out the action and experience the result?

Your requirement for free will to apply when there is no identity, appears to be irrational.
 
Except that in this case, we are that script, so to speak.
Yeah, I can see that.

Your assumption seems to be that free will would exist only if there would be no identity whatsoever, nothing preset, no givens.
I don't think that's what I'm assuming.

I.e. I may have a predilection for apples, but I could decide to go, just this once, for a pear.

(On the other hand, how do I know that I wasn't predisposed to choose a pear this time? ;))
 
You are on a pre-destined path created by yourself. So even though you have to choose the apple, it was you who originally chose the apple, because you are looking at a time loop.
Time loop?
So you want to add wild speculation on top of unsupported theistic claims?


So if you originally chose the apple then God would see that. I am now in my own future from Yesterday. Yesterday I played The Beetles on the Keyboard. I know that I did it, but I did not create that thought today when I had the memory of doing it. I created the thought before I did it. Because I know about yesterday, it does not remove yesterday's free will.
What utter, sheer, unmitigated rubbish.
Knowing AFTER the fact is not (try to understand this) the same as knowing BEFORE the fact.
 
Time loop?
So you want to add wild speculation on top of unsupported theistic claims?



What utter, sheer, unmitigated rubbish.
Knowing AFTER the fact is not (try to understand this) the same as knowing BEFORE the fact.

You are not allowed to change the rules of your own Paradox. God knows, not YOU. If God can be at any time, its a time loop.
 
I don't think that's what I'm assuming.

I.e. I may have a predilection for apples, but I could decide to go, just this once, for a pear.

(On the other hand, how do I know that I wasn't predisposed to choose a pear this time? ;))

If the scope for free will is contained within the parameters of certain constraints (based on previous use of free will) you have a system where free will can co-exist with providence.

For instance if you are in a jail that serves only apples, apples is all you will get once your free will lands you there. Or if you use your free will to board a plane to London, you won't be going to Paris.

In this way the consequences of our free will shape the environment that we utilize it in the future (call it karma).

In this way, conditioned existence offers a very marginal scope for free will since existence is mostly about reaping the consequences of previous acts.
 
FFS!
Wrong.
As previously explained.
If it is KNOWN what we will do then we cannot do otherwise.

That's the part that you are using in a linear fashion in one direction. God is using it from the other direction in the future.

You = A.....................................B(eat an apple)...................................C
God = A.....................................B(eat an apple) God watches.................C

God watched AFTER you did it. Yesterday for us. I played the Keyboard... I had Free Will.
 
That's the part that you are using in a linear fashion in one direction.
Wrong again.

God is using it from the other direction in the future.
So you ARE adding unwarranted speculation... :rolleyes:

God watched AFTER you did it. Yesterday for us. I played the Keyboard... I had Free Will.
No you didn't.
If it's the past (for anyone) then, since the past is fixed, you couldn't have chosen differently because you chose ONLY what you chose.


Will you please stop proliferating specious addenda and address the logic?
 
Wrong again.


So you ARE adding unwarranted speculation... :rolleyes:


No you didn't.
If it's the past (for anyone) then, since the past is fixed, you couldn't have chosen differently because you chose ONLY what you chose.


Will you please stop proliferating specious addenda and address the logic?

omnipresent means to be at any time. So our future.
 
And another introduction of something not in the original.


I'll give you it again, since you seem to have missed it:

If it's the past (for anyone) then, since the past is fixed, you couldn't have chosen differently because you chose ONLY what you chose.

If it's the past for anyone then that path was chosen by you originally. So you chose that path before it was looked at.
 
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