Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Norsefire,

God can know what you will do in the future without affecting it.
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That's fine, but that means you are predetermined to take that action since he knows it will certainly occur. Or as the thread points out you will have no free will to do anything other than what has been predetermined.
 
Cris said:
Norsefire,

That's fine, but that means you are predetermined to take that action since he knows it will certainly occur. Or as the thread points out you will have no free will to do anything other than what has been predetermined.
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My mother put a diaper on me because she knew I would fill it, I didn't.
 
Aliq,

Something you are missing here is that the concept of God is by the Christian point of view believed to exist within yet exceed the physical universe. The concept is meant to govern as well as encompass all that exists, including the fundamental science of mathematics. Because the idea exists outside the limits of math, it is deemed undefinable.
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That’s simply a dishonest call to agnosticism; God is unknowable.

Your argument exists within the realm of mathematics which requires certain parameters of the concept in question. A big one which is missing in your case is the need of a definition of the concept. You cannot disprove that which has no definition and thus your argument is flawed, any claims or proofs you make past that point are irrelevant because the idea in question does not adhere to necessary parameters.
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No. Christianity makes very clear claims. (1) Man has free will. (2) God knows everything (omniscient). The issue is not concerned with undefinable concepts but those which Christianity specifically asserts and as such the claims form the paradox that this thread is exploring.

I would offer that if a god were to exist it might well beyond our ability to understand it, but that isn’t the context of this thread.

Also, according to the Christian point of view, free will is relative, and although man may seemingly make his own decisions, his entire existence is predetermined as the post above by foxer demonstates. Thus your you condition that christians belive in free will is false and your argument is further flawed.
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What, really does that mean? Free will simply means the freedom to make a choice without any coercion or to have such choices made for you, i.e. predetermined. Attempts to twist that to mean something else because the definition is inconvenient is simple dishonesty again.

On a side note, it is ignorant to call religion deviod of complexity. Although not necessarily verifiable, monotheistic religions serve as a tool to instill values and preach a humble life where the primary concern of one's life is the betterment of society and not just one's self. It gives people a purpose and allows them to identify themselves as more than meaningless projections of complex mathematical equations as our current understanding of science tells us. It is a concept which is necessarry for the development of civilization, without it biological influence would take over and man would be reduced top small groups of competetive, selfish factions driven by pure genetics.
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And philosophy explores a multitude of variations of those themes some of which tie into religious beliefs and many do not. If you remove those aspects and focus on purely the religious basics then religion is entirely simplistic in its underlying nature. It primarily exists because death exists
 
dave,

My mother put a diaper on me because she knew I would fill it, I didn't.
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That is not a call to knowledge but an expectation. If she had been omniscient she would have known the diaper wasnt needed.
 
Cris said:
dave,

That is not a call to knowledge but an expectation. If she had been omniscient she would have known the diaper wasnt needed.
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In this context she was omniscient, and I'm here to prove it.

But obviously she only reflects Godlike behaviour, maybe because she was made in God's image.
 
Alighieri said:
The underlying message is the same in the Torah, Bible, and Qu'ran; lead a humble life devoted to the betterment of man.
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No, the message is to pay submission and worship god, first and foremost, before anything else, including your family.

Violence is occasionally mentioned as a punishment for those who deviate from from this path and thus serves as a means to an end, much like the threat of imprinsonment or death for a crime.
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Yes, we stand in horror and amazement at the story of Noah as god takes a very dim view of mankind and drowns them all, save one family. Further wonderment of the blameless animals of the world drowning too is equally baffling, and sordid.

To contrived ends, Islam promotes lying, killing and going to war to meet it's objectives of intolerance and bigotry.

Violence is well established and promoted in these ancient myths.

Controversial violent preachings derived from scriptures to promote actions such as genocide and terrorist attacks are highly manipulated lies far removed from the actual message presented in the holy books.
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"Christian, dost thou see them
On the holy ground?
How the troops of Midian
Prowl and prowl around?
Christian, up and smite them,
Counting gain but loss;
smite them by the merit
Of the holy cross."

A Christian tune glorifying the genocide of the Midianites by the hand of Moses, incited by his god.

Or, perhaps when god drove out the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites from their homes so that the 'children of god' could have a new home. Sound familiar?

"...ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves. For thou shalt worship no other go: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exodus 34:13-17)
 
Cris,

The bible affirms predetermination and denies free will. Such evidense is present in nearly twenty passages, including but not limited to Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Romans 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations.
 
Perhaps rather than say free will is relative in the Christian opinion, I should say illusionary, like centrifugal force.
 
Ali,

The bible affirms predetermination and denies free will. Such evidense is present in nearly twenty passages, including but not limited to Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Romans 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations.
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So you agree then that the Christian God cannot exist? We must be as the OP states, merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster if such a being were to exist.
 
Your argument is based on the assumption that christians claim man has free will. The bible says he does not. Thus your paradox does not exist in the bible.

Perhaps your argument should be modified to the god of christian sects that do not strictly adhere to the bible as ulmtimate truth cannot exist. However your paradox and thus your argument does not exist for those that do, such as Catholisicm.
 
Aliq,

Your argument is based on the assumption that christians claim man has free will. The bible says he does not. Thus your paradox does not exist in the bible.

Perhaps your argument should be modified to the god of christian sects that do not strictly adhere to the bible as ulmtimate truth cannot exist. However your paradox and thus your argument does not exist for those that do, such as Catholisicm.
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Somewhat irrelevant I think. The essence of Christianity is that Jesus is needed to save us and that we are free to choose to be saved or not. "Jesus said - Believe in me and ye shall have everlasting life". If as you say there is no such free choice and whether we burn in hell forever or are sent to heaven is beyond our control, then that apparent offer for us to choose life or death is a total farce.

Now I can quite believe that you have found quotes in the bible that assert everything is predetermined and that man has no free will, but then those seem to conflict with everything else where the bible says the opposite.

What really would it mean if the alleged Jesus actually made that offer for us to choose to live or die knowing all along he had already chosen for us?
 
Alighieri said:
Your argument is based on the assumption that christians claim man has free will. The bible says he does not.
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Agreed. And there ain't much we can do about it, either.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22
 
Is there an answer to that? I'm wary that biblical quotes can be taken out of context and can be shown to mean the opposite of what they at first appear.

I'd agree that that quote does seem to condemn God as an uncaring monster who is going to do whatever he wants to regardless of whether any individual deserves it or not. But I suspect Christians will be able to rationalize that quote somehow.
 
If I am Christian I‘ll answer as below ….

\***God has Omniscience, Omnipotent and Detachment.***\

Var:

Omniscience: =Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Omnipotent: =The absolutely power(as God).
Detachment: =The mind without any bias any whether good or bad.
General program: = The program its run only one’s programmed line by line.
AI program:= The program its can generate new or delete the old line(s) with there
experienced in individual way of life through the sensors(eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and heart where the program self generate)


Main
Begin.

Proposal :

Your logic haven’t been proved one thing yet.

“If God has Omniscience then he must use his own Omnipotent.”

God can know everything via Omniscience but sometime he unwish to use
Omnipotent .And god has absolutely Detachment.

If apply this proposal human free will can available.

Whenever you can proof that “If God has Omniscience then he must use his own Omnipotent .” then I accept the “human free will is absolutely an illusion”.

God just created you as AI(Artificial Intelligent) like the program can run by itself.

Question is how the God programmed you, the program run converge to make
output actions to go to the heaven or hell .The person who God programmed be converged as Hell destined. It is quit unjust. However I think God never coerce
someone to do good or bad thing. He will give the good supplementary thing to
balance them with his Omnipotent &Detachment mind.
So every action occur from human free will.

End.

Your Program :

Main
Begin
If anyone ague my thinking then I will reject it with my thinking.
End.


You are quit high IQ of logic thinking in my opinion but the most important thing
is should you ask yourself that this method of thinking make you feel real happy
,liberty from the suffer(at least from your this kind of thinking for .)
this thinking can apply to your life to make the abundant happy.
It is the true important thing in every life.


Your thinking like cage which crib you.
Open your mind every things can be occur with severalty…..please reconsider



Ah! If you searching for immortality just try Buddha religion ….

Buddha’s quote “This religion I invite all to proof by yourself then you will see”
 
U-wanderer,

Although I dont agree with Cris's proof either, your argument does not adress anything. The proof has nothing to do with omnipotence, only omniscience. Man cannot have free will if God already knows the path of every individual. That is the paradox, omnipotence does not apply. Fortunately for the christian faith, the bible says that man does not have free will and therefore the argument cannot exist.

Despite, not leaving his position, he has also been quite lenient with arguments that actually do adress the paradox, so your statements after that are nonsense.

I really enjoy the irony of the irrelevant comments you make after your useless argument where you clearly attempt to present your line of thinking as symbolic and inspired, when in reality you just make yourself look like an idiot.

Congrats.
 
Sorry to everyone who might though that my comment look like to be bad.
If neclegt just only my kidding message or symbolic
(though it sound irony or something like that I'm so sorry)
perhaps sometimes I idiot.
My wish just if someone can get some useful from my comment.
If forgive me, I'll appreciate.

Thank you.
 
Consider yourself forgiven.

You really need to improve your english my friend that last message was nearly completely illegible. All I got out of it is that your sorry.
 
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