Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[MarcAC]

Hell is in essence a place with the absence of a God you don't believe in. So rejoice, even though you may be a little hot, you will at least finally be rid of the God you are already ignoring.

Exactly, the "argument" shall stand in hell.

 

[Turduckin]

Because to us, the Scriptures are the only concrete evidence of God.

This 'scripture only' view is not supported by scripture. Romans 1 starting at verse 18 - What may be known of God - even his invisible qualities - is clearly evident in creation.

 

[MarcAC]

Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives despite external coercion.

Very true - determinists should pay attention to this.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

A paradox is not a false statement- it is a true statement that is seemingly contradictory.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paradox

par·a·dox ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-dks)
n.
1. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
2. One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: “The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears” (Mary Shelley).
3. An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
4. A statement contrary to received opinion.

Paradoxes are very common when you are discussing higher truths, since higher truths are all-inclusive and flexible.

 

[jayleew]

This 'scripture only' view is not supported by scripture. Romans 1 starting at verse 18 - What may be known of God - even his invisible qualities - is clearly evident in creation.

Maybe not, but it is what keeps my logical mind from saying that God doesn't exist. Whether we like it or not, a belief in God is irrational according to the mind of man (which is science, reason, etc.). The fact that there is a Bible, which is the only message that I can touch from God, is evidence to the logical minds that CHOOSE to believe. So, my faith has a foundation in Scriptures and not what the preacher says on Sunday.

 

[Diesel]

It is rather futile. Christians! Heed the words of Christ:
Matthew 7:
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

In other words, it is futile to discern the scriptures for those who do not want to hear. They will only beat the "crap" out of you.

At least atheists do not constantly call you dogs, swine, snakes, etc and hope you go to "hell"

 

[MarcAC]

At least atheists do not constantly call you dogs, swine, snakes, etc and hope you go to "hell"

After seeing two (2) of your posts I have two (2) pieces of evidence which can be used to demonstrate your need of a "Reading for Dummies" manual.

 

[Diesel]

Did I insult you in a thread somewhere or are you just being an ass??

 

[okinrus]

The threads too long to know whether I'm repeating anything or not, but here goes.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.

No, omniscience is knowing everything, basically having complete knowledge. Knowledge is a creation of God. Whether God knows the future depends on whether the future is a part of knowledge and whether God creates knowledge within time or outside of time.

Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.

Again, you haven't really defined free will here? What's freedom?To me, free will is the rational explanation of justice and ourselves in that we can say "we chose to do something". But freedom, unlike free will, can be taken away. Freedom is the individual's ability to physically do something, while free will is the individual's ability to make choices, not necessarily acting on them. Obviously this definition isn't good either. I suspect free will can only be properely defined by given circular examples, for there exists no other concept quite like free will.

Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

OK, there are other definitions of the word paradox. Often a paradox occurs because the speaker hasn't properly defined every and each word. For example, the saying everyone who seeks to save their life will lose it is not a contradiction because what is meant by the sentence isn't a contradiction.

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Your definition, yes, but what does this mean?

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined.

As soon as we are able to make a choice, we have free will. Whether this choice is known beforehand doesn't take away the fact that we make choices.

 

[MarcAC]

Did I insult you in a thread somewhere or are you just being an ass??

You can't insult me.

 

[Turduckin]

The fact that there is a Bible, which is the only message that I can touch from God, is evidence to the logical minds that CHOOSE to believe. So, my faith has a foundation in Scriptures and not what the preacher says on Sunday.

What about faith, before the printing press was invented?

 

[jayleew]

At least atheists do not constantly call you dogs, swine, snakes, etc and hope you go to "hell"

Of course, of course.

I am calling you nothing. Jesus was illustrating the point he was trying to make, so that the people could understand. I am trying to stop the preaching and get to the arguement, in a way that Christians do with one another. After all, God is at the center of all our relationships, so we respond to God's word.

I will not call you any name, because it is pointless to come to any conclusion if both sides of an argument bash each other and their statements without thinking first. Mudslinging is pointless to solving an arguement. Besides the fact, the moment I start judging you, is the moment I cease to be Christian.

 

[jayleew]

What about faith, before the printing press was invented?

With my mind...I don't think I would have been a Christian before the Bible. If there was no Bible...I don't think I would have faith, because the word is my strength of faith. The word is my food. Now, that I have tasted the Words of Life, my faith would not diminish if all the Bibles were destroyed.

I would have driven a nail in Jesus and spit on his face.

 

[Turduckin]

Now, that I have tasted the Words of Life, my faith would not diminish if all the Bibles were destroyed.

But if all the bibles were destroyed, how would you hear the word, how would you eat your food. Wouldn't you starve to death?

 

[Cyperium]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris

Free will is free will, if your choice is to kill someone then that is your choice. If Saddam Hussein wants to murder someone, then that is his choice. God is well aware that people are suffering, and will suffer. But it is still our free will, our choice to limit that suffering as much as we can. The rain comes down on both good and evil.

No one can argue that they are puppets, since they aren't. As high as the sky is over the earth, that high is the thoughts of God higher than the thoughts of men. Free will is a gift from God. And it is free. The freedom may be limited by our limited nature, but that's not all that bad, since if it wasn't limited in any way we would be like water flowing in all directions, we must have feelings and the choice of acting according to these feelings if we choose to, or not acting, or go against the feelings even. Troublesome as it may appear that God knows your next move, it isn't really because He is so much higher that you can do anything and God will have forseen it anyway. That is not a limit to free will, it is you that make the choice. You have been given the choice.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris

Cris,

You make an excellent argument (good job). If Omniscience becomes
voluntary then it doesn't work and if it is voluntary then it works great.
This causes a logic problem as 'God' could choose to limit its perfect
knowledge to a cross section of what's available.

 

[enton]

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Christians` God is not omniscient.

 

[Godless]

Christians` God is not omniscient.

Thanks for clarifying that! not only is "IT" not omniscient, "IT" Dont exist. "IT" is not omnipresent, nor omnipotent, but it is "NONEXISTENT". We knew!.

Godless

 

[TruthSeeker]

It "doesn't" exist, Godless.......

Why not? Should we listen to someone that doesn't know grammar on the subject of an all-knowing creature?

I'm just being mean...

 

[Godless]

I put the "IT" between paranthesis, to imply god. The word "god" to me is an it, not a being, not an existent, but a word with no identity. No other way to describe such a concept. God is nothing more than the illusions of ancient schizophrenic men.

Godless