Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Cris,

***An omniscient creator creates the conditions where every action would take place and through his omniscience at the beginning of time could see that every detail occurs exactly according to plan.***

Free will is part of the plan. As such, God* does not plan our choices. The action taken is taken freely. An omniscient God* that has given man free will can know your choice in advance but does not make the choice for you.

***If there was even a slight variation, i.e. someone made a different choice compared to the one he planned, then he would not be omniscient.***

There can be no variation. God* did not plan the choice. An omniscient God* that has given free will does not "plan" your choice. An omniscient God* "knows" your choice.

Your computer analogy does not work for me because, unlike God*, you planned the computer's decisions. You did not give the computer a choice. The computer did not have a free will.

However, if you created a bunch of computers and programmed them with a choice - like allowing them to randomly display either "Cris" or "blonde_cupid" when prompted for an answer to the question, "Who made you?" - then, most likely, you would not be able to predict with 100% accuracy which answer any given computer might give to that question at any given time.

You are not omniscient when it comes down to such choices.
 
Blonde_cupid,

Let me try a slightly different approach because I don’t think we are connecting and I don’t think you have seen my point yet.

Free Will: The apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined.

Or from Websters: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

I think we’re ok with the definition of free will, right?

What you are saying is that even though a choice is known beforehand that doesn’t mean that free will has not been exercised.

My point is that that sequence is impossible.

If you know, or if anyone knows, that an apparent choice is going to be made at some point in the future then effectively that choice has already been determined, or pre-determined if you prefer. How you know or what mechanism is used is irrelevant. The point is that if it is known beforehand then the choice has already been made.

When the time comes for the event to occur then there can be no real choice. There cannot be any action other than the one that was pre-determined at the former time. The claim for free will becomes an illusion only.

IOW if the event has been pre-determined then that to my mind classifies as a prior cause and contradicts free will as defined above.

The issue with an omniscient god is that such a being would have perfect knowledge of every event from the beginning of his creation. It follows then that every event would be pre-determined. And as we see from the argument above anything that is pre-determined cannot also be determined by free will.

The existence of an omniscient creator and human free will cannot coexist.

Cris.
 
Cris,

Really... I see the point you are trying to make but I disagree with your argument.

***What you are saying is that even though a choice is known beforehand that doesn’t mean that free will has not been exercised.***

Correct.

***My point is that that sequence is impossible.***

I disagree.

***If you know, or if anyone knows, that an apparent choice is going to be made at some point in the future then effectively that choice has already been determined, or pre-determined if you prefer. How you know or what mechanism is used is irrelevant. The point is that if it is known beforehand then the choice has already been made.***

Yes, the choice is made... by whom? By the one who looks ahead and sees the choice being made? No. The choice is made by the one who makes the choice. The only way to know the choice is to allow the choice to be made.

***When the time comes for the event to occur then there can be no real choice. There cannot be any action other than the one that was pre-determined at the former time. The claim for free will becomes an illusion only.***

As far as I can determine, that is not true. I have been married for a loooonnnngggg time. My spouse knows me very well and knows with 100% certainty what my choice will be when I am faced with certain options. My spouse's knowledge was never a cause of that choice, not the first time and not the last time. Nor will my spouse's knowledge cause me to make the choice the next time or the time after that. I could make a different choice, but I will not, and my spouse knows that.

***IOW if the event has been pre-determined then that to my mind classifies as a prior cause and contradicts free will as defined above.***

My spouse knows me very well and can tell you with 100% certainty what my future choice will be when I am faced with certain options. In my mind, that pre-determination (my spouse's prior knowledge of what my choice will be) does not qualify as a prior cause because the actual choice is being made by me. That my choice is known by my spouse beforehand does not contradict my free will. I am still the one making the choice. My free will is very much in tact.

***The issue with an omniscient god is that such a being would have perfect knowledge of every event from the beginning of his creation. It follows then that every event would be pre-determined. And as we see from the argument above anything that is pre-determined cannot also be determined by free will.***

As you can see from my example, things can be pre-determined and also determined by free will.

***The existence of an omniscient creator and human free will cannot coexist.***

Sure they can. :)
 
Your spouse is God?

Okay, Christmas dinner is at your house, Blonde Cupid. ;)

--Tiassa :cool:
 
***Okay, Christmas dinner is at your house, Blonde Cupid.***

Why not!? That's the way it's been for years now.

You know... you might have hit on something there. I think it would be great if the major participants in this forum were to get together, face-to-face, and have some of these discussions while sitting down and breaking bread together at the same table.

I'd be happy to do the cooking... maybe next Christmas if we're all still around...??? :)
 
I would attend but!

There's already enough bickering in my family's christmas dinner, why go to start bickering about what no-one can prove!. :rolleyes: :confused:
 
***Your spouse is God?***

Not quite tiassa.

My spouse knows me very well and can predict with certainty some of my choices. God*, I believe, knows me even better. The intimate knowledge which both of them possess about me does not cause me to make the choices which I make. Their knowledge does not contradict my free will.
 
blonde_cupid

***If you know, or if anyone knows, that an apparent choice is going to be made at some point in the future then effectively that choice has already been determined, or pre-determined if you prefer. How you know or what mechanism is used is irrelevant. The point is that if it is known beforehand then the choice has already been made.***

Yes, the choice is made... by whom? By the one who looks ahead and sees the choice being made? No. The choice is made by the one who makes the choice. The only way to know the choice is to allow the choice to be made.
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Ok I see where we are not connecting.

We need to distinguish between clairvoyance (ability to look into the future) and omniscience (knowledge of all events, past present and future).

Clairvoyance would perhaps be like someone using a time machine and travelling forward into time and watching an event occur, and by that means obtaining knowledge of future events. And certainly they would not be the cause or part of the cause of the event.

Omniscience is not about observing what is going to happen but having pre-knowledge of what will happen. Remember god is all knowing. If he had to specifically look ahead to see what happens then there would be a point when he wouldn’t know. Omniscience is about knowing what will happen before it happens and is not about observing.

An omniscient god would have perfect knowledge about every event from the beginning of time to the end of time. He would know every choice before the choices were made, but then they wouldn’t be choices they would be simply pre-determined events.

My spouse knows me very well and knows with 100% certainty what my choice will be when I am faced with certain options.
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Ha ha, I know what you mean and my wife and I had similar experiences, but we did reach a point where we tried to not be so predictable and would deliberately make alternate choices. You cannot claim 100% certainty in this case; you can only claim a high degree of probability based on inductive reasoning. But we are talking of very different things here.

I am not claiming that mere knowledge of a future event will cause the event, what I am saying is that perfect pre-knowledge of a specific future event guarantees that that event will occur despite any perceived human choice. The event would have been planned at the moment of creation and that is the cause of the event and not human free will. This must be so if a creator god is omniscient. If he is to know every event in the entire history of the universe from the moment of creation then every event must have been pre-determined at the time of creation. The only controlling influence would be that of god and human free will cannot exist under such a condition.

I am still the one making the choice. My free will is very much in tact.
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Yes of course that is all true because an omnipotent omniscient god does not exist. You have not been pre-programmed and the future has not been written yet. What happens next is entirely up to us.

Cris
 
God is who He says He is!

GOD is! No matter what you have said , your words are of ignorance of God's presence! I say that you do not know God, because you hate God and love the world and it's pleasers ! He sits in the Heavens and laughs at you all for denying His existence, He knows your fates since before time began! And ALL of us will have to give in account in the 'near future' before the Almighty God your Creator!:mad: ;) But JESUS is still willing to have you come unto Him for forgiveness of sins! And He still, and He will, despite what your friends and teachers and the Devil will tell any of you!

So long as you live, there will always be a chance with JESUS for forgiveness of sins and a peace of mind that you have never experienced before in your lives! "A peace that will surpass all understanding!" That 'peace' will keep your hearts even though any situations of life! And then you will know that GOD is too real, and He loves you! You where made in the image of GOD, and NOT the other way around! He is beautiful! You and I are 'fallen', and come far short of the Glory of GOD your Creator! But God has made a way for us humans to come to a HOLY GOD, and that is through JESUS the Son of God, who is really GOD!! He made the supreme 'sacrifice' 2000 years ago! All we need to do is to trust in Him!

GOD is not a 'monster', He is a friend that will be by your side through thick and thin!

Once a nation forgets GOD, the people will morn, and if not repentant, they shall parish in the Earth! And there will definitely be NO improvements of life apart from GOD's laws, love, and protection! The nation will fall!! Don't' believe me ?:bugeye: Watch the news this year!

But the people of God still have a voice! And JESUS 'still' can heal our lands!
God is watching you! And waiting, with open arms!

To cast of that you to which you do not understand, is of ~ignorance!
 
Hi Sir Loone,

GOD is!
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Explain how you know this.

your words are of ignorance of God's presence!
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Ignorance of something that doesn’t exist is not a problem. But I simply can’t find his presence anywhere I look. I really have no choice.

I say that you do not know God, because you hate God and love the world and it's pleasers !
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No not at all. There is no value in expending energy on hating things that do not exist. I hold no animosity towards your deity. If you can show him to me then I’m sure I’d have no problem with him.

And I don’t particularly love this world either. It offers some interesting challenges, but all the time I’m locked into this inefficient and disease attracting biological form then pain and eventual death are not things I desire.

He sits in the Heavens and laughs at you all for denying His existence,
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When someone superior and capable of great wisdom and teaching laughs at someone who is far less capable then that is known as arrogance. Why should I be interested in such a spiteful being?

He knows your fates since before time began!
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If so then you understand the whole point of this topic. That pre-knowledge means pre-determination for humans who cannot therefore have any control of their own will. We would be merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster that you consider worthy of worship.

But JESUS is still willing to have you come unto Him for forgiveness of sins! And He still, and He will, despite what your friends and teachers and the Devil will tell any of you!
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Then let him make himself be clearly known to me. I have all my senses intact and am capable of great love and understanding. My mind is entirely open to new concepts and ideas. Why is it that he cannot find me of he exists?

You where made in the image of GOD, and NOT the other way around! He is beautiful!
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Are you saying that God looks like a human being? Why would he take on such a hideously inefficient design.

GOD is not a 'monster', He is a friend that will be by your side through thick and thin!
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If he has determined our fate for us, as you say, and when devoted Christians die horrible deaths then I fail to see how he is any sort of friend at all. Friends do not cause the death of their friends, such a person who does such evil is a monster.

To cast of that you to which you do not understand, is of ~ignorance!
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It is not possible to understand something that cannot be shown to be true or to even exist. To believe something mythological as if it were true is to show ignorance of reality. Fantasies cannot save you. I can understand your fear of reality because in the real world you will die – come to terms with that and stop pretending in non-existent invisible fantasies.

THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD.
 
"He sits in the Heavens and laughs at you all for denying His existence, He knows your fates since before time began!"

I'm glad your God is getting some amusement out of creating all these non-believers.

If he knew all our fates then he knew we would deny his existence. He is laughing at himself again for creating us as non-believers, this god of yours.

If only the joke were that funny, but its not. Its quite tragic.
 
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GOD is Real, and incarge!

Originally posted by Cris
Hi Sir Loone,

It is not possible to understand something that cannot be shown to be true or to even exist. To believe something mythological as if it were true is to show ignorance of reality. Fantasies cannot save you. I can understand your fear of reality because in the real world you will die – come to terms with that and stop pretending in non-existent invisible fantasies.

THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD – THERE IS NO GOD.
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Hi Cris!:D You are the 'created and not the Creator! GOD is love, and He is more real then you are!:) And His thoughts and ways are higher then that of ours! You exist because He exist, and you were created in his image, and your not an 'evolved' creepy creature, (ape) but that of GOD's designs, a living soul and a spirit that is immortal!

GOD always existed! He was the very same GOD a hundred 'trillion' centuries before the universe was created! And He does see the end from the beginning! Remember that God's thoughts and was are far higher then ours, and He knows more then anyone ever! He is the Supreme Being!:cool:

Your words little man, does not make any reality at all!:D You shall soon see for your selves that this GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, was and is the GOD He says He is!

Live and learn my little 6'7" foot rabbit!:rolleyes: :D
Man is not an answer to himself, but GOD his Creator who loves him who He has created! I said that, but the Bible does have a better saying to that!


The Word of GOD is 'absolute' truth! YES every single word!
And He knows who you are and from start to finish!
Don't end up being "worm food"!
But, the person that will live forever in splendor in Paradise with a loving Heavenly father God that cares for you and yours!

Live and learn! It may take a life time for most, but some may find out sooner!
 
All Life, Has Purpose and Meaning!

Originally posted by Deepuz
"He sits in the Heavens and laughs at you all for denying His existence, He knows your fates since before time began!"

I'm glad your God is getting some amusement out of creating all these non-believers.

If he knew all our fates then he knew we would deny his existence. He is laughing at himself again for creating us as non-believers, this god of yours.

If only the joke were that funny, but its not. Its quite tragic.
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Read the Bible for your self, and go to Church, if you are not afraid of the truth!;)

And there are 'absolutes', the Word of GOD has answers that none others have! Man by himself is very limmited in understanding of the 'absolute truth'!

Live and learn all you that are 'youngsters'! And for the old, think again, you know not all there is to know about even your own selves! Live and learn, or become "Worm Food"! And later for the eternal fires of Judgment!:eek:

JESUS still can save all that will call upon His name!:)
 
Much too loud Loone. Please us a smaller font, unless of course you have poor eyesight.

As I said before making text larger doesn't add any extra weight to your baseless assertions, the larger size just makes you look even more foolish.
 
*Originally posted by Cris
When someone superior and capable of great wisdom and teaching laughs at someone who is far less capable then that is known as arrogance.*

Not really, since God isn't laughing at you for the sake of you, but for the sake of the specious arguments you propose for his non-existence.

I laugh, too.

*Originally posted by Deepuz
I'm glad your God is getting some amusement out of creating all these non-believers.*

It's not so much the non-believers, as it is the reasons they have for being non-believers.

*If only the joke were that funny, but its not. Its quite tragic.*

If it's that tragic, then why the jokes?
 
tony1,

When someone superior and capable of great wisdom and teaching laughs at someone who is far less capable then that is known as arrogance.[/i]*

Not really, since God isn't laughing at you for the sake of you, but for the sake of the specious arguments you propose for his non-existence.

I laugh, too.
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Yes I have noticed that when someone finally realizes that their claim is totally false they tend to be either speechless or resort to humor.

I notice that on one has been able to refute my argument, and you can only ‘laugh’, so I assume you finally realize that the Christian god cannot exist and therefore does not exist.

Cris
 
*Originally posted by Cris
Yes I have noticed that when someone finally realizes that their claim is totally false they tend to be either speechless or resort to humor.*

?
What kind of scientific aphorism is that?
I've taken part in many different kinds of contests over the years, and I have noticed a few things.
1. When you are the champion, the challengers will try anything to psyche you out.
2. The losers who really are good, but just failed to win, admit it.
3. The losers who are second-rate fire up the excuse generators and let them run wild.
4. Last but not least, I laugh at wannabe challengers who aren't even close, but I take the good ones seriously.

*I notice that on one has been able to refute my argument, and you can only ‘laugh’, so I assume you finally realize that the Christian god cannot exist and therefore does not exist.*

It's that point four thing from the list above.
Laughter is for those who aren't even close.
Besides, your point appeared to be that laughter is related to arrogance.
While I question the validity of that, I can concede it to you, if you can explain what difference that would make anyway.
 
Laughter is for those who aren't even close.
Besides, your point appeared to be that laughter is related to arrogance.
While I question the validity of that, I can concede it to you, if you can explain what difference that would make anyway.

If they weren't even close, disproving them should be quite easy shouldn't it? No, your laughter is not for those who aren't even close, rather for those who are too close for you to answer.
 
tony1,

Laughing or not can you refute my argument started in this thread?

Cris
 
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