Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

*Originally posted by Xelios
If they weren't even close, disproving them should be quite easy shouldn't it?*

First, you'd have to realize that you aren't even in the same ball park, then you'd have to realize that you aren't in the same league, then you'd have to realize that you aren't on the team, and then you'd have to realize you don't know the game PLUS you'd have to find out what game IS being played.

When you are that far wrong, laughter is really the only option.

*Originally posted by Cris
Laughing or not can you refute my argument started in this thread?*

LOL!
Good point, Cris.

Yes, I can, and the laughter IS the refutation.

He that sits in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
(Psalms 2:4, KJV).
 
All that shows, tony, is your lack of understanding of the question.
 
Tony1,

As I thought, my proof has thwarted you. Since laughter can be interpreted many ways I will take it and your inability to provide a reasoned rebuttal that you cannot provide a reasoned rebuttal. If the issue was so trivial as you imply then you should have no trouble offering me a reason why I might be wrong. But you cannot do that can you?

Just to summarize for you:

An omniscient creator god will have perfect knowledge of every event that is to occur up until the end of time. This means that every choice and decision you will ever APPEAR to make will have been pre-determined from the beginning of time. The decision as to whether you, or anyone, go to heaven or hell, has already been determined by this god.

Pre-determination and human free will cannot coexist under such circumstances. If human free will is impossible then the Christian claim that people have freedom to choose between Christ and the Devil has no meaning and Christianity is similarly meaningless. And the claimed ‘all good’ god is truly evil for arbitrarily condemning a large number of innocent people to eternal torment.

If the Christian god is omniscient then human free will does not exist and Christianity is meaningless, humans would be no more than puppets in the hands of an evil monster.

If human free will is real then the Christian god cannot be omniscient and as such cannot be omnipotent. In short the definition of the Christian god and Christian claims for human free will would result in a paradox. Such a god as defined simply cannot exist, and therefore does not exist.

If you can refute this then be serious for a moment and make an attempt.

Cris
 
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Tony1

First, you'd have to realize that you aren't even in the same ball park, then you'd have to realize that you aren't in the same league, then you'd have to realize that you aren't on the team, and then you'd have to realize you don't know the game PLUS you'd have to find out what game IS being played.

When you are that far wrong, laughter is really the only option.
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Being in your presence is uneducating- your words empty.
 
*Originally posted by Cris
As I thought, my proof has thwarted you.*

As usual, you inject a note of comedy to defuse the tension, so to speak.

*If the issue was so trivial as you imply then you should have no trouble offering me a reason why I might be wrong. But you cannot do that can you?*

Well, I could say look out the window, but you've rejected that.
Laughter is all that is left.

*An omniscient creator god will have perfect knowledge of every event that is to occur up until the end of time. This means that every choice and decision you will ever APPEAR to make will have been pre-determined from the beginning of time. The decision as to whether you, or anyone, go to heaven or hell, has already been determined by this god.

Pre-determination and human free will cannot coexist under such circumstances. If human free will is impossible then the Christian claim that people have freedom to choose between Christ and the Devil has no meaning and Christianity is similarly meaningless. And the claimed ‘all good’ god is truly evil for arbitrarily condemning a large number of innocent people to eternal torment.*

Of course, since eternal torment is NOT the "final resting place" for a large number of people, your theory, while off to a good start, kind of fizzles at the end of this section.

*If the Christian god is omniscient then human free will does not exist and Christianity is meaningless, humans would be no more than puppets in the hands of an evil monster.*

Of course, since your assumption of "evil monster" was based on the assumption of eternal torment, it, too, is invalid.

*If human free will is real then the Christian god cannot be omniscient and as such cannot be omnipotent. In short the definition of the Christian god and Christian claims for human free will would result in a paradox. Such a god as defined simply cannot exist, and therefore does not exist.

If you can refute this then be serious for a moment and make an attempt.*

Of course, the claim of omnipotence is questionable, too, since even an omnipotent God can delegate his power and leave the wielding of such power in the hands of his delegates.

Thus, no paradox.
Mind you, the argument you presented does in fact demolish the god you described, but since that god isn't God, you haven't accomplished as much as you may have hoped.
 
tony1,

Mind you, the argument you presented does in fact demolish the god you described, but since that god isn't God, you haven't accomplished as much as you may have hoped.
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Most Christians consider their god to be omnipotent and omniscient, among other claims of course.

Now I know you aren't included in 'most Christians' and I really do not know how to classify you. Perhaps you could describe the primary attributes of your god, for me, with particular reference to omipotence and omniscience etc. Please be as detailed as you can.

Hoping you will do this.
Cris

PS. Humor - it's my lifestyle, I tend to see humor in almost everything.
 
If I really offered you

1) A Happy Life for you and everyone you want to have a happy life

or

2) A headache for the rest of your life.

You have the free choice to do what you want.
But I still know what you would choose (and I'm only human)
 
You make a good point Cris, and Im a Christian.
I think this phrase pretty much answers why we have no fucking clue why God does what he does
"God works in mysterious ways" stop me if you've heard this before
 
Cris said:
Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.
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This house of cards appears to rest on one assumed (or missed) uknown: wether the Knowledge of God determines what happens or what happens determines God's Knowledge.

So my "smart" atheist friends: have you determined which it might be? You must have to have arrive at some conclusion such that it would be such a convivial atmosphere on the communal road to hell.

Of course we then consider time with regards to the Christian God (Is the Christian God in our time or "outside of" it?). Christians assume the latter so if you address the Christian God then you address a God not bound by our time.

The faithful non-sequiturs cannot use fish logic to disprove God's existence; the faithful non-sequiturs cannot disprove God's existence. Get out of your atheist shells will you? Better yet - stay in them and go to hell. :)
 
tony1 said:
...since God isn't laughing at you for the sake of you, but for the sake of the specious arguments you propose for his non-existence.
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Man, I wish I had such talent. :D
It's not so much the non-believers, as it is the reasons they have for being non-believers.
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:D I love you brother as I'm sure God does.
 
Dood you must be bored!. Tony 1 is a ghost, this thread has been dead for three years, And Tony1 long gone, with the other nut heads of the era, who frequent this board!.

G.
 
Godless said:
Dood you must be bored!. Tony 1 is a ghost, this thread has been dead for three years, And Tony1 long gone, with the other nut heads of the era, who frequent this board!.

G.
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Matters not; the question still stands, I still had a good laugh, and wherever Tony 1 is I still express my Christian love.
 
MarcAC: Matters not; the question still stands, I still had a good laugh, and wherever Tony 1 is I still express my Christian love.
*************
M*W: MarcAC, there is no question about whom Jesus was or who you thought he was. He didn't exist. So, there is no salvation. What is the driving force that makes you believe you are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus H. Christ???
 
MarcAC said:

So my "smart" atheist friends: a convivial atmosphere on the communal road to hell.
Get out of your atheist shells will you? Better yet - stay in them and go to hell. :)
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I had a good laugh too, thanks. ROTFLMAO
what is it with you religious zealots, we dont believe in heaven or hell, so why do you constantly throw it at us as if you think we'd be scared. duh!
 
Even if this is an old thread I like the subject. I would have to say that the problem with the logic is that even if you know something, it doesn't always have an effect on it. We may know that God is real, but it doesn't make your opinion change if we tell you. God may know what you are going to do, but it doesn't mean that he is going to stop you if it's bad. Hence you have freewill. However, He still may want to save you from a Hell you don't necessarily believe in. That brought about Jesus and the meaning behind John 3:16. It is an unconditional love that gives a motherly quality to the father. Freewill exists so that God is not a dictator. He may say love me or die, but that is a spiritual death as happened in the Garden of Eden they surely did not physically die as evidenced by the human race, but they died spiritually. Anyway, you shouldn't be mad when we say you are going to Hell if you are an atheist. Hell is in essence a place with the absence of a God you don't believe in. So rejoice, even though you may be a little hot, you will at least finally be rid of the God you are already ignoring.
 
Cris, your reasoning on the original post id flawed. you have confused Omniscience and Coersion by Fate.

Just because I know what that my son will not listen to my advice and commands, desiring to break the law and hurt himself terribly, I still must give him the advice and commands. I do not force him by this to break the law or do wrong, but I still will his good, whats better for him, though he will not listen. He has Free Will, I cannot force vhim either way, although I already have foreknowledge of his choice.
 
Cris said:
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris
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I am tired of debating this with non-Christians, if you want a detailed explanation, go to Who created God? in the forum. We talked about it there. In a nutshell: We can prove that we do (in fact) have free will. I can run my car into a pole if I wanted to, but I hope you all just take my word that I have free will, and you all have free will, and not make me prove it by driving into a pole. :eek:

So, the question is, does free will negate the existence of God. It depends on your understanding of free will.

No, having free will does not. Why not? Because I can give you advice on any given decision you are faced with, but the choice is still yours. I can tell you that you ought to believe in God, but you have the choice. That is what the Holy Spirit does (in a simplistic explanation). It gives advice, but it is deeper than that. Your definition of "Free Will" is incorrect.

How can a God be omniscient without having a predetermined destiny for each of us (which destroys free will)? He knows the infinite number of possibilities and the infinite number of possibilities that can arise from each possibility. He also knows our hearts which then he can apply probabilities to each possibility, in order to know the chances of us choosing a certain way.

I propose that God doesn't know what we will choose, but he knows our heart, and he knows what will happen if we choose option A or option B. His behavior in the past in scripture supports this concept that God hopes that we will choose His way:

God, who predetermined to wipe out the Isrealites and planned to build a nation of Moses long ago, changed his mind because Moses pleaded for them. Right there it shows that God knows what will happen if Moses chooses to plead and if not, but doesn't know which possibility we will choose. However, he does know the heart of man and knows who he can trust to make the right decision. These people are called, "Friends of God" I hope God calls me a friend, but I don't know.

Long story short...your definition of Free Will is incorrect.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives despite external coercion.
 
Medicine Woman said:
MarcAC: Matters not; the question still stands, I still had a good laugh, and wherever Tony 1 is I still express my Christian love.
*************
M*W: MarcAC, there is no question about whom Jesus was or who you thought he was. He didn't exist. So, there is no salvation. What is the driving force that makes you believe you are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus H. Christ???
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Because to us, the Scriptures are the only concrete evidence of God.
 
audible said:
I had a good laugh too, thanks. ROTFLMAO
what is it with you religious zealots, we dont believe in heaven or hell, so why do you constantly throw it at us as if you think we'd be scared. duh!
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It is rather futile. Christians! Heed the words of Christ:
Matthew 7:
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

In other words, it is futile to discern the scriptures for those who do not want to hear. They will only beat the "crap" out of you.
 
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