Pro-lifers, explain your perspective for me please

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spidergoat said:
I draw the line at it's having a functional nervous system. Before that, it's just meat, but it's also an outgrowth of the woman's body, and therefore it's her prerogative to decide it's fate. We shouldn't even be having this discussion, safe and effective birth control pills for men need to be invented and mass produced.

Young people under the influence of powerful hormones, cannot be expected to control themselves. It's unrealistic to rely on moral fortitude. Evolution has favored too long our animal instincts to procreate. Now, it's too much, we have become a cancer on the Earth. That's not justification to cause people harm, but we have to realize that legal abortion is a pro-life point of view. Of course, with a monotheistic viewpoint, you think mankind is the primary purpose of the Earth.
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on the contrary, this is a pro-industrial point of view ...
 
visceral_instinct said:
An argument I have heard on here quite a few times from the anti-abortionists is that since the woman chose to have sex, she should take responsibility and accept the consequences...and somehow, they equate 'take responsibility' with 'have the baby'.

To me this makes about as much sense as someone saying to me, 'If you mess up a manoeuvre at parkour, you should take responsibility, accept the consequences, and willingly fall on your head. Whirling around 90 degrees and landing less harmfully on your limbs is selfish, irresponsible, and a cop out.'

?
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Correct. It's a retarded argument.
 
kira said:
According to the teaching of the Prophet Muhammad (sAas), the soul is placed in the fetus after 120 days. This is his explanation of the meaning of several passages in the Quran (particularly Surah al-Muminun verses 12-14 and Surah as-Sajda verses 7-9) that discuss the stages of development of the fetus. Thus, under Islamic law, the fetus is considered a human being after the end of the fourth month. From this, it is clear that abortion after the fourth month can only be allowed in Islamic law if it is the lesser of two evils, that is, if the mother's own life is at risk.[/I]

So yeah, in Islamic countries, it is most likely a punishable offense if the abortion is above 4 months old (unless for the medical reasons of the mothers). But I would say it is something difficult to prove (if the miscarriage is deliberate or incidental).
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I find that fascinating because the average abortion is performed within the second month, the first trimester. Some States in the US will not allow an abortion after 3 months. So based on what is written above why do you still insist its morally wrong to have an abortion? The divine would not have placed the soul in the fetus by the time it was aborted:shrug:

The irony is that what is written supports the pro choice argument that a fetus is not yet a child.
 
Lucysnow said:
I find that fascinating because the average abortion is performed within the second month, the first trimester. Some States in the US will not allow an abortion after 3 months. So based on what is written above why do you still insist its morally wrong to have an abortion? The divine would not have placed the soul in the fetus by the time it was aborted:shrug:

The irony is that what is written supports the pro choice argument that a fetus is not yet a child.
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I did not know that before I entered this thread. :p I have just figured that out when I looked up how is abortion according to Islam, so I made up my mind after I posted this. It's not something that I really think about. If the prophet said so and it doesn't harm anyone, I don't think why I should be against it.

My basic thinking still stand, though, if you terminate after it has a soul (which is apparently after the pregnancy is 120 days old), for no acceptable reasons (e.g. mother's life is at risk, mentally unstable, psychological damage of rape) then it is a murder.
 
Lucysnow said:
I find that fascinating because the average abortion is performed within the second month, the first trimester. .
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More than 80% of all abortions are performed within 12 weeks after the LMP and one third of all those performed after 12 weeks are by teenagers. Medical terminations which comprise 10% of all abortions are performed until 24 weeks. Less than 1% or about 1000 abortions per year are conducted after 24 weeks and are called late term abortions.

This is an 8 week old fetus:

8-week-unborn-baby.jpg


This is an ultrasound of a baby at 8 weeks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olNeGEPW4PE

I worked with a radiologist for 4 months. It was a life changing experience.

It turned all my views on abortion completely on their head.
 
Sam within 12 weeks is within the first trimester and most women do get an abortion within 9 weeks. Just look at the stats and diagram in this link:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

61% of women have an abortion in their 9th week. Only 9% have an abortion in their 11th or 12the week.

I know all about what they look like at different stages of development but it doesn't change my view on the issue.

The Center for Bio-Ethical research has these stats:

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:

52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy,

25% happen between the 9th & 10th week,

12% happen between the 11th and 12th week,

6% happen between the 13th & 15th week,

4% happen between the 16th & 20th week,

and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

So you are incorrect. Not to mention that an abortion after the first trimester are illegal in many states. Not to mention the fact that in Europe many women simply take the morning after pill.
 
I'm not sure what you are saying. Most of the abortions apart from the morning after pill occur after the 8th week since women will generally wait to miss one menstrual cycle before they realise they are pregnant and it is rare that they will immediately go for one. So when the arms and legs are being pulled off, the kid is at least as well formed as the 8 week old fetus, if not more. Its not some blob that you can pretend doesn't exist.
 
Two to three months is the first trimester and I am saying that most abortions take place within the first trimester.

The form of the fetus within the first trimester is not a case against abortion.
 
S.A.M. said:
More than 80% of all abortions are performed within 12 weeks after the LMP and one third of all those performed after 12 weeks are by teenagers. Medical terminations which comprise 10% of all abortions are performed until 24 weeks. Less than 1% or about 1000 abortions per year are conducted after 24 weeks and are called late term abortions.

This is an 8 week old fetus:

8-week-unborn-baby.jpg


This is an ultrasound of a baby at 8 weeks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olNeGEPW4PE

I worked with a radiologist for 4 months. It was a life changing experience.

It turned all my views on abortion completely on their head.
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Sam, even if it looks like a baby, it still has no soul before 120 days (according to Muhammad teaching), and even in Islamic law a fetus is only considered a human being after the end of the four months. According to this, most Islamic scholars says abortion below 4 months is makruh, i.e. better to avoid but not punishable if done. What is your opinion? :confused:
 
Kira: According to this, most Islamic scholars says abortion below 4 months is makruh, i.e. better to avoid but not punishable if done.

Which I find interesting. Christianity doesn't have such details as many christian simply thinks of it as a sin even if its the morning after pill that is used.

I don't think Sam's opinion is formed on religious grounds.
 
Lucysnow said:
Kira: According to this, most Islamic scholars says abortion below 4 months is makruh, i.e. better to avoid but not punishable if done.

Which I find interesting. Christianity doesn't have such details as many christian simply thinks of it as a sin even if its the morning after pill that is used.

I don't think Sam's opinion is formed on religious grounds.
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Yes, in Islam the rules are quite details. There is 6666 verses in the Quran, some people remember everything in it and preserve it from generation to generation, I never even finish reading one :D. But with internet it's not that difficult, I just type the keywords, I'll find what I need to know. The ones that are not covered in the Quran is covered in hadist (it's not the saying of Allah like the Quran, it's the saying of Muhammad himself, but Quran told to follow both). The ones that are not covered in both, or subject to interpretation, is decided by the scholars and sometimes become controversy.

Now that is nothing compared to European law. I know that something discuss about specification of orange juice and some vegetables covered over 5000 pages of European law :D.

For example, in Switzerland, they already applied the exact range of zucchini length acceptable in the market. Out of this range, it is to be considered as 'deformed' and should be rejected to enter the market :D This reminds me to go shopping!
 
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kira said:
Sam, even if it looks like a baby, it still has no soul before 120 days (according to Muhammad teaching), and even in Islamic law a fetus is only considered a human being after the end of the four months. According to this, most Islamic scholars says abortion below 4 months is makruh, i.e. better to avoid but not punishable if done. What is your opinion? :confused:
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There is a thread on abortion in Islam that I started some years ago.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=70539
 
kira said:
Now that is nothing compared to European law. I know that something discuss about specification of orange juice and some vegetables covered over 5000 pages of European law :D.

For example, in Switzerland, they already applied the exact range of zucchini length acceptable in the market. Out of this range, it is to be considered as 'deformed' and should be rejected to enter the market :D This reminds me to go shopping!
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Japan is worse when it comes to fruit and vegetables. They want it to be absolutely perfect, no bruises or anything. They pay an arm and leg for them too.

Oh sorry too off topic:D

From abortion to fruit and vegetables you gotta love it!
 
S.A.M. said:
This is an 8 week old fetus:

8-week-unborn-baby.jpg
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Ah, memories..

Cuddly little fellow, isn't it? Well as cuddly as 24mm can be. Yes, that's right, that bigger than life image is in reality only about 24mm.

Images such as this are often used by pro-lifer's with the question.. "how can you kill this child".. I nearly miscarried at 8 weeks in my first pregnancy. To tell you how they knew at the time whether it was a miscarriage or not, they had to take away the "materials" and test it for foetal matter. In other words, it was too small to see with the naked eye whether the "child" had come out or not, so they had to test it.
 
Do you think a miscarriage is equivalent to putting in a vacuum pump voluntarily and tearing off bits and pieces of a child that is inconvenient?

That 8 week old fetus would not be invisible, it would fit right across the palm of your hand. It would be as big as the length of your thumb.
 
lightgigantic said:
makes sense, as long as you throw the whole notion of potential out the window
(BTW I think you just provided a good argument for terminating newborn babies too, as well as well as the mentally and physically retarded, since they don't do much either)


because despite your arbitrary definitions of life, a fetus also has a whole thing happening too (and as a further detail, more often than not its a consequence of what the woman had going on in the first place)
(BTW I don't think you would find many people who would describe running their hands through an aborted fetus as delightful)
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No because when you take away someone's future you are hurting an existing person. You're causing actual suffering.

Terminating a fetus doesn't do either of those. Unless you do it late when it is conscious.
 
S.A.M. said:
Do you think a miscarriage is equivalent to putting in a vacuum pump voluntarily and tearing off bits and pieces of a child that is inconvenient?

That 8 week old fetus would not be invisible, it would fit right across the palm of your hand. It would be as big as the length of your thumb.
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Yes.
 
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