I severely hope not. I have like 4/5 of them a year at random times. Sometimes less. O_O
Pro-lifers, explain your perspective for me please
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I severely hope not. I have like 4/5 of them a year at random times. Sometimes less. O_O
the problem is that you are working with an arbitrary notion of consciousness ... and frankly that is where the conflict lies. On an interesting side point, when there is a lot of vested interest in a potentially controversial issue, its not unusual to give it a different name in order to make in more palatable. Like for instance calling the slaughter of livestock and the burning down of houses "relocation of civilian populations", or even replacing abortion with "tissue removal".
Was there a reason that you said "you are working with an arbitrary notion of consciousness ..." rather than "we ..."?
If so, I'm just curious as to where your non-arbitrary notion comes from and why your particular notion should be considered as valid for those that don't hold the same views / values as you from which your claim of validity arises.
:shrug:
Who cares if it's conscious? We slaughter lambs and suckling pigs by the thousands daily and think nothing of it, in addition to cats and dogs. As long as it's painless, it doesn't matter.
Are you referring only to the killing of livestock / non-humans with this?
What's the difference? A baby is just as conscious and probably no smarter than a baby pig.
I am not trying to make it more palatable. I am well aware it involves pumping out a potential human from a woman's body.
I just don't think a potential human is more important than a real and existing one.
Good point, Sarkus.
Birth.
You have me intrigued, spidergoat.
We certainly seem to differ in where this line might be, and this difference is more intriguing to me than one I may have with someone that results from their religious perspective.So, what is it at birth that puts a human baby beyond comparison in such matters to a baby pig, that prior to birth - let's say a few days - does not?
The umbilical cord.
But I realize my view is unrealistic politically. The line should be an active working nervous system, and this point will be able to be determined scientifically in the coming years. Obviously, a fertilized egg doesn't feel anything, it's an invisible collection of cells, you lose more cells brushing your teeth. Obviously, most people don't want babies to die, and even premature babies can survive and be healthy adults. So, let's draw the line to the best of our ability and modify it as needed in the future. People should really have better access to birth control, and there should be a male "pill".
But I realize my view is unrealistic politically. The line should be an active working nervous system, and this point will be able to be determined scientifically in the coming years. Obviously, a fertilized egg doesn't feel anything, it's an invisible collection of cells, you lose more cells brushing your teeth. Obviously, most people don't want babies to die, and even premature babies can survive and be healthy adults. So, let's draw the line to the best of our ability and modify it as needed in the future. People should really have better access to birth control, and there should be a male "pill".
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Bells
Staff member
Are you aware that if at 8 weeks, they can't get a heartbeat, their normal procedure is to put in a "vacuum pump" and sucking out what is left?
Have you ever seen a miscarriage before? I have. It is a violent and horrid expulsion from the body of a group of bloodied cells. And most times, the "child" comes out in pieces. It is a terrifying and painful ordeal.
Actually, yes it would be. When you miscarry that early on in the pregnancy, everything comes out as clots. Very large clots. So they take the clots away and test it all for pieces of foetal matter. You can't dig through it and find it. I had the same issue at 15 weeks and again, they had to go and test it since they could not see if my son had come out or not, even though at 15 weeks, he was much bigger than he was at 8 and 10 weeks... I had miscarriage scares every week in my first trimester.. some worse than others..
The irony is... all you people who argue agans "choise" still want the choise to be up to the woman whether she has an aborton or not :shrug:
Have you ever known a miscarriage to be voluntary? To be that of a child that might have survived otherwise?
Do you think live children miscarry? Is it the same as attaching a vacuum to the legs of a viable 8 week old and tearing them off?
I recommend you go to a radiologist and look at what an abortion entails. In fact, I think that should be a part of the informed consent so women know exactly what they are doing when they exercise this "choice"
I'm not against choice. I just don't agree with abortion myself. I think once you conceive you should realise that there is another person involved in your decisions.
The ordinary and well known - by failure of the adopted technique - same as any other.lightg said:
How do you think they measure the failure rate of condoms?
As always, it is the intent of the mother that suddenly creates the humanity of the embryo - in any other context than abortion, no consideration of manslaughter or proper handling of the body or anything of the kind arises.SAM said:
Of course. Usually, of course, no one even bothers to check - most of the time, the little innocent baby is simply flushed down the toilet it was expelled into. Call it a "heavy period". Check your local cemetery - any religion - for their graves. They should be at least a sixth of all the graves present - maybe twice that.SAM said:
Live children are even removed in non-abortion circumstances, such as in ectopic pregnancy - and discarded, in the trash, without a peep from the prolifers.
The only time a three month embryo is ever considered to be a human being in ordinary life, by anyone, is when abortion comes up. The rest of the time, it's part of the mother, potential, medical waste, etc, and always has been.
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Bells
Staff member
If a miscarriage was voluntary, it would not be called a "miscarriage". Some women do miscarry in times of extreme stress, for example. In short, their bodies abort the foetus because of the stress the mother is placed under. And sometimes an abortion can happen automatically.
Of course they do. Do you think every single foetus is dead when miscarried? For example, a foetus may be alive and well and the cervix just dialates, resulting in a miscarriage. The foetus or "child" is expelled and is still alive in many such instances and as Iceaura has pointed out, simply disposed of, no questions asked. No one even bats an eyelash in how those "children" are disposed of. Why is that?
Have you actually ever seen a miscarriage and the effects of a miscarriage? Sometimes the foetus will be expelled in pieces and if any pregnancy detrius remains inside the womb, a D & C is performed.
Do you assume that when women go to their doctors for an abortion, that the procedure and what is involved is not explained to them in detail?
You claim to be "pro-choice" but you seem to detest what being pro-choice entails. It seems to only be acceptable to you if one is pro-choice and doese not get an abortion if they so choose.
So according to you, does a fetus of 8 weeks have any humanity?
Really? Ask any 3 month pregnant woman what she thinks of this medical waste.
Bells said:
I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. Doesn't mean I think all choices are equally valid.
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Life at conception?
Is there something wrong with asking their opinions?
Luckily, Virginia SB962 failed before the General Assembly. That law would have required that mothers—or an agent acting appropriately on her behalf—report the fetal death within twenty-four hours, including the identity of the mother and location of the remains, which must be preserved until removal, destruction, or disposal is expressly authorized by appropriate authorities.
Indeed, such a law would have women calling authorities every time they have an unexpected bloody discharge.
Do you believe life begins at conception?
____________________
Notes:
Richmond Sunlight. "Fetal deaths; when occurs without medical attendance, mother, etc., must report within 24 hours. (SB962)". (n.d.) RichmondSunlight.com. March 31, 2010. http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2009/sb962/
Kira said:
Is there something wrong with asking their opinions?
Luckily, Virginia SB962 failed before the General Assembly. That law would have required that mothers—or an agent acting appropriately on her behalf—report the fetal death within twenty-four hours, including the identity of the mother and location of the remains, which must be preserved until removal, destruction, or disposal is expressly authorized by appropriate authorities.
Indeed, such a law would have women calling authorities every time they have an unexpected bloody discharge.
Do you believe life begins at conception?
____________________
Notes:
Richmond Sunlight. "Fetal deaths; when occurs without medical attendance, mother, etc., must report within 24 hours. (SB962)". (n.d.) RichmondSunlight.com. March 31, 2010. http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2009/sb962/
I guess by that measure you could rate forgetfulness to purchase a condom as condom failure
:shrug:
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