Pro-lifers, explain your perspective for me please

[visceral_instinct]

Are you pregnant? I would think you wouldn't even try, so it's rather irrelevant. What I said was, there are people who abort because they're mentally unstable. Can't blame them, just like law can't touch them for criminal acts.

No, I meant hypothetically, sorry.

I mean I would be mentally unstable if I were, for sure. I can't find the idea of having a child beautiful. I just feel grossly dehumanized at the idea of being a baby machine. I think I would try and destroy the thing in me no matter what even if the method was something horribly dangerous like deliberately falling from a height.

 

[Sarkus]

Pregnancy is not a random occurrence. It is a direct consequence of a (more often than not) willed activity

Ah, yes, the 100% success ratio of the "activity".


visceral_instinct - one's perspective on this matter surely depends on more fundamental matters - such as one's view of morals, one's view of life, religion etc. If you can't see eye to eye on those then I can't really see the purpose of trying to have someone explain their perspective on something such as pro-life / abortion - it would be fairly meaningless to be honest, and discussions will just run around in circles and move back to these core matters.

I may be wrong, though. You may find it helpful?

As for the OP, to me "taking responsibility" should surely apply to any and every decision we make - and in this matter it would apply whether one continues a pregnancy or terminates... both have consequences. All actions do. It doesn't make the decision "right" or "wrong" - this value would be determined by your morals etc.

The important thing, imho, is that the choice is informed and responsibility is taken for that choice, whatever it is.

I laugh when I see people equating "taking responsibility" and "having the baby" when it seems that they do so through delegating their responsibility for such choices to the moral compass that they have had given to them by a religion they have never questioned. It is these people, in my view, that are not taking responsibility.

 

[lightgigantic]

If by person you're talking about a fetus, no because it's not yet a person.

It's equivalent to a lump of gelatine because it's viscous, it doesn't do much, and it is basically just a blob.

makes sense, as long as you throw the whole notion of potential out the window
(BTW I think you just provided a good argument for terminating newborn babies too, as well as well as the mentally and physically retarded, since they don't do much either)

Gelatine does, on the other hand, make a nice texture in sweets...ooey... *laughs childishly behind her hands*

Jokes aside, I cannot comprehend a point of view that says an existing flesh and blood woman who has thoughts and emotions and a whole life going on, should put this pre-neocortical ball of goop first. I honestly can't.

because despite your arbitrary definitions of life, a fetus also has a whole thing happening too (and as a further detail, more often than not its a consequence of what the woman had going on in the first place)
(BTW I don't think you would find many people who would describe running their hands through an aborted fetus as delightful)

 

[kira]

No, I meant hypothetically, sorry.

I mean I would be mentally unstable if I were, for sure. I can't find the idea of having a child beautiful. I just feel grossly dehumanized at the idea of being a baby machine. I think I would try and destroy the thing in me no matter what even if the method was something horribly dangerous like deliberately falling from a height.

And here I thought you like flinging babies into passing cars

Look VI, everyone has fear. If you fear to walk through a street, just go to another street that you don't feel afraid.

 

[Tiassa]

Women should be prisoners in their own homes?

Can I stick a question in here for the pro-lifers, please?

• Should miscarriages be investigated as potential homicides? What standard of liability should a suspect face?​

Okay, that's two questions. Three if you count the intro.

Point being: Do you prosecute a woman for falling down the stairs? Tripping over the edge of a floor mat at work? How about owning a car that isn't top-rated for safety in its class and model year? Or, maybe, for driving a subcompact instead of a sedan? Should women report a potential death to police because their period came early or late?

There are some more question marks. But we can start with the general principle. Although I'm curious to how the local police department's Department of Menstrual Investigations would be structured, or how to formulate the protocols for the Prenatal Homicide investigations.

Let me know what y'all come up with, m'kay?

Thanks.

 

[lightgigantic]

So the souls are simply plopped into wombs and this has nothing to do with the pasts of those souls?

after conception, hindsight doesn't come into play

(of course there is the wider issue of the nature of a soul taking on a material body, but its not really necessary to introduce that at the moment. I mean if a person cannot recognize that presence of life in a fetus, they will no doubt struggle with a higher grade of definition)

 

[lightgigantic]

I cannot imagine that God would allow a fetus to be placed where God knows there is a good chance the baby is not welcome and then allows that to be it for the baby. Sorry, you lucked out. She had an abortion, you're history. That makes no sense to me. It is not what a loving father/mother would do.

So you are saying that life within womb, however brief, offers no potential to exhaust a backlog of karma?

 

[Doreen]

after conception, hindsight doesn't come into play

Not quite sure what you are saying here.

(of course there is the wider issue of the nature of a soul taking on a material body, but its not really necessary to introduce that at the moment.

I disagree.

I mean if a person cannot recognize that presence of life in a fetus, they will no doubt struggle with a higher grade of definition)

I'm not sure who this person is, but I cannot look at the issue without taking into account what is going on 'behind the scenes'.
This is from a post earlier to Kira.

I cannot imagine that God would allow a fetus to be placed where God knows there is a good chance the baby is not welcome and then allows that to be it for the baby. Sorry, you lucked out. She had an abortion, you're history. That makes no sense to me. It is not what a loving father/mother would do.

i think it is guilt that tells us that once this happens we must see the contract we did not sign out.

 

[Doreen]

So you are saying that life within womb, however brief, offers no potential to exhaust a backlog of karma?

Nope, not saying that. And, again, what is that soul up to, heading for a womb it is not wanted in? and what is God doing if God is only allowing this spot for that soul to work out its backlog?

 

[kira]

Can I stick a question in here for the pro-lifers, please?

• Should miscarriages be investigated as potential homicides? What standard of liability should a suspect face?​

Okay, that's two questions. Three if you count the intro.

That certainly does not depend on the pro-life's opinions. That depends on the law. As far as I know, no law states a miscarriage as a potential homicides. A deliberate miscarriage, though, probably is a punishable offense in Islamic countries. I am not so sure, I don't live in Islamic country.

Point being: Do you prosecute a woman for falling down the stairs? Tripping over the edge of a floor mat at work? How about owning a car that isn't top-rated for safety in its class and model year? Or, maybe, for driving a subcompact instead of a sedan? Should women report a potential death to police because their period came early or late?

I think you are stretching too far. To all of your questions, the answer is no. Going to doctor to deliberately abort a pregnancy, though, I think is morally wrong (so said my moral compass). Everyone is free to live according to their own moral compass. Just as everyone is free to make up opinions in their own minds.

There are some more question marks. But we can start with the general principle. Although I'm curious to how the local police department's Department of Menstrual Investigations would be structured, or how to formulate the protocols for the Prenatal Homicide investigations.

Let me know what y'all come up with, m'kay?

Thanks.

Can refer to above.

 

[lightgigantic]

Nope, not saying that. And, again, what is that soul up to, heading for a womb it is not wanted in? and what is God doing if God is only allowing this spot for that soul to work out its backlog?

so you are saying that no matter what circumstances dictate the conditions a soul takes birth in, they must have the opportunity to resolve all their karma issues within that one life?

 

[Doreen]

so you are saying that no matter what circumstances dictate the conditions a soul takes birth in, they must have the opportunity to resolve all their karma issues within that one life?

I really don't know what you are talking about. Can you connect the dots for me.

 

[lightgigantic]

Not quite sure what you are saying here.

decision making at the point of conception cannot dramatically affect the decisions that were made previous to it

I disagree.
I'm not sure who this person is, but I cannot look at the issue without taking into account what is going on 'behind the scenes'.
This is from a post earlier to Kira.

for me the person is VI and the host of others who take shelter of an arbitrary notion that the values that govern life begin outside the womb

i think it is guilt that tells us that once this happens we must see the contract we did not sign out.

material nature obliges us
(IOW its part of the contract of material existence under the influence of false ego)

 

[lightgigantic]

I really don't know what you are talking about. Can you connect the dots for me.

sorry I misread your statement

I now understand you are indicating problems with the notion of "one shot at eternal life"

 

[Doreen]

decision making at the point of conception cannot dramatically affect the decisions that were made previous to it

yes, but I am still needing the dots filled in more.

for me the person is VI and the host of others who take shelter of an arbitrary notion that the values that govern life begin outside the womb

OK. So you left your front door open. And some guy sets up his home in your apartment. I mean, you made that decision. And he is poor and suffering and vulnerable. You gonna throw him out on the streets. He has a lot of karma to work through and he can make a good case that he can work this through in your house. I just don't see how you can take shelter in an arbritrary notion that the values that govern life inside the womb end when the person comes outside the womb. I mean we all know there are squatters.

material nature obliges us
(IOW its part of the contract of material existence under the influence of false ego)

Guilt trip. And obviously it does not oblige us or cats.

 

[Doreen]

sorry I misread your statement

I now understand you are indicating problems with the notion of "one shot at eternal life"

Or whatever. It depends on the belief system.

 

[lightgigantic]

yes, but I am still needing the dots filled in more.

Think of it like a jail sentence.
Decisions were made that lead one there and decisions can be made once one is there on the best means to get out or whatever, but in the meantime one has to bite the bullet.

OK. So you left your front door open. And some guy sets up his home in your apartment. I mean, you made that decision. And he is poor and suffering and vulnerable. You gonna throw him out on the streets. He has a lot of karma to work through and he can make a good case that he can work this through in your house. I just don't see how you can take shelter in an arbritrary notion that the values that govern life inside the womb end when the person comes outside the womb. I mean we all know there are squatters.

generally we experience it as "family attachment" ... although this, much like the values surrounding life within the womb, has also gone through the wringer of this modern world

Guilt trip. And obviously it does not oblige us or cats.

an absence of moral obligation is one of the few luxuries of animal life. The down side is that having a life thoroughly dictated by material nature provides an almost zero chance of surmounting it

 

[kira]

My previous reply:

Can I stick a question in here for the pro-lifers, please?

• Should miscarriages be investigated as potential homicides? What standard of liability should a suspect face?​

Okay, that's two questions. Three if you count the intro.

That certainly does not depend on the pro-life's opinions. That depends on the law. As far as I know, no law states a miscarriage as a potential homicides. A deliberate miscarriage, though, probably is a punishable offense in Islamic countries. I am not so sure, I don't live in Islamic country.

Edit (add):

Abortion in Islamic law:

According to the teaching of the Prophet Muhammad (sAas), the soul is placed in the fetus after 120 days. This is his explanation of the meaning of several passages in the Quran (particularly Surah al-Muminun verses 12-14 and Surah as-Sajda verses 7-9) that discuss the stages of development of the fetus. Thus, under Islamic law, the fetus is considered a human being after the end of the fourth month. From this, it is clear that abortion after the fourth month can only be allowed in Islamic law if it is the lesser of two evils, that is, if the mother's own life is at risk.

So yeah, in Islamic countries, it is most likely a punishable offense if the abortion is above 4 months old (unless for the medical reasons of the mothers). But I would say it is something difficult to prove (if the miscarriage is deliberate or incidental).
​

 

[Doreen]

Think of it like a jail sentence.
Decisions were made that lead one there and decisions can be made once one is there on the best means to get out or whatever, but in the meantime one has to bite the bullet.

But it is precisely the case that one does not have to bite the bullet. And now you have given that fetus 9 months of feeling the mother's vibe that it is a bullet one must bite and that she is bad for her feelings of not being more loving. If the fetus learns from its birth mother, than it learns that it must override itself for others.

generally we experience it as "family attachment" ... although this, much like the values surrounding life within the womb, has also gone through the wringer of this modern world

But if that attachment is not felt, it would be a lie to proceed as if it is there. Or is one soul more our family than another soul?

an absence of moral obligation is one of the few luxuries of animal life.

Never had a dog who thought this was true.

The down side is that having a life thoroughly dictated by material nature provides an almost zero chance of surmounting it

I'm not a dualist in that way. I have no animosity towards material existence. In fact it has always bothered me the way many religions try to teach me to denigrate immanence - however much they deny this when it is pointed out.

 

[Orleander]

..the way many religions try to teach me to denigrate immanence - however much they deny this when it is pointed out.

Can you explain that to me please. I don't understand