Prayer Works -- a praise report for my Christian Brethren

[invert_nexus]

Jenyar,

Are you God that you can save anyone?

Apparently so if determinism is the order of the day.

The only evil I see here is your attitude towards her, as if a Christian could justify such language.

What's so evil about my attitude towards her? Everyone here knows that Gendanken is a vile, hateful, mean, spiteful, evil bitch. She has the devil in her Herr Jenyar. I defy you to prove me wrong.

 

[§outh§tar]

I defy you to prove me wrong.

How does one prove a negative?

This is not done in formal systems.

 

[invert_nexus]

Southstar,

How does one prove a negative?

This is not done in formal systems.

One. Neither human consciousness nor religion are examples of formal systems.

Two. The question is not how to prove 'a negative' but rather how to prove that Gendanken is not utterly beyond salvation. And their is a way to prove this, is there not?
A simple way.
Save her soul.

 

[Mephura]

Aside from the last one, which sounds somewhat dodgy to me, I can understand how a parent in general will view them as quite serious.

Yes, I just realized that I failed to explain the last one. I believe that part of life is learning to follow instructions. There is a time for choice and a time for the status quo. By follow instructions, I am referring to things such as doing homework before playing, obeying rules specific to a situation (such as not running of at an amusement park, or not playing in the street. General rules that are set down for the safety and betterment of the child.

However, all the telling off and smacked bums in the world never stopped anyone from being a bully or from having the occasional fisticuff session. We've all punched someone in our lives, (most probably), and there is generally a good reason to do so, (from our perspective).

Granted, there are those occasions when things do happen, but it isn't a good habit for children to get into. The ability to settle disputes without resorting to violence as a first measure is a quality that I would like to encourage.

I find that the more a person keeps saying 'no', the more the other person will want to do it. If my daughter has issues with someone and tells me about it, I will tell her to go and punch them in the nose.

At this point I am begining to wonder about the age of your daughter. I will say, however, that in my experience, it has always been the boys that seem to want to punch someone in the head, or *cough* other places when they are upset. That kind of reaction isn't one that will get them too far in life. The sooner that control is learned, the less problems the child will have in teh long run. In my oppinion of course.

It's worth pointing out that she never has, no matter how many times I tell her she can or should, and that she'll always find a different way of solving the issue. I'm sure this doesn't work for everyone, but I'm explaining why I personally disagreed with your last statement. I've never had to say "no" to her, and I've never seen her do anything even remotely worth a telling off - because of that.

It sounds like quite the phenominal child you have. Never tried to stick a fork in the light socket, or a sandwhich in the vcr? Never tried to run out in the street? amazing...
You should patent your formula.

Just out of interest, how would you explain punching someone in the nose as being wrong?

If the offense was something minor. Let's say child 'a' doesn't let child 'b' have the ball they are playing with. Should child 'b' punch child 'a' in the nose?
If so, you are denying child 'b' those same rights that you give to your daughter.
Either that or subscribing to the idea that might makes right.

Do you find 10 minutes of boredom makes for a better behaved child?

Actually, yes. I am talking generally of group situations though. Watching others have a good time without you can be quite the incentive to "play nice".

I guess there's the difference between "no" and "do it if you want to but you'll probably be arrested for it". However, would you say that all of these people that have committed crimes come out of jail a lot better off?

No I wouldn't. I would say however, that had they gotten used to following the rules at a younger age they might not have landed in jail. An ounce of prevention and all that.

But I was getting more along the lines of typical parent behaviour - where a child will be told off for not wanting to go somewhere, or do something the parent tells them to or isn't in the mood to eat their food. It just seems ridiculous to me.. Of course that's just a personal thing and I don't really expect anyone to agree.

Actually, being one that was raised by your 'typical parent' and remembering how I felt about it, I agree whole heartedly. Children need to be able to make choices.

While I am around a lot of the time, she simply does not get into 'situations'. I find that I can literally encourage her to do what you might consider 'bad' things and she wont. I'll tell her she can swear and drink alcohol etc, but no matter how much I encourage her to she wont do it. It's quite difficult to explain, but perhaps best to just look at her like a mini-version of my wife. My wife can do whatever she wants to do and go out and do all kinds of 'bad' things, but doesn't

Now you really have me wondering. I can't immagine telling a 5 year old to drink alcohol and swear, let alone incourage them.

Me included in that. Don't worry though, I forgive you for your incorrect assumptions.

Having two parents does help.

My child always does behave. Odd sounding perhaps, and probably "bullshit" to Wes, but it's the way it is.

I do find one thing however - which some might regard as an issue, but I generally don't. She prefers to spend her time with her parents. Some kids seemingly want to spend their lives at their friends house, (I was like that), or playing with a group of kids. My daughter prefers our company than others. Whether this will cause issues in future social settings where we're not there I don't know, but for now I'm not overly worried that she loves her parents.

I wish you the best of luck in that area. Let us hope that the closeness of the relation stays throughout the years.

The rest of this was aimed at wes, and I will let him answer it.

 

[Mephura]

Southstar,



One. Neither human consciousness nor religion are examples of formal systems.

Two. The question is not how to prove 'a negative' but rather how to prove that Gendanken is not utterly beyond salvation. And their is a way to prove this, is there not?
A simple way.
Save her soul.

Save her soul?
I think if that is to be done, it will be done through a rational argument and not throwing faith and biblical passages at her. I know it might seem a bit strange to speak of a rational argument concerning religion, but there is no reason why one can't exist. All logical systems start with at least one or two assumptions. Why should this be any different?

Oh, and Invert, determinism isn't necessarily the order of the day.

 

[§outh§tar]

invert,

Do you blaspheme and say soteriology is not codified in formal language?

(That's a little joke for Lawdog, who claims theology to be a 'science')

As for Gendanken, we all know she ain't got no soul!

Your suggestion is now easier read as the only way to prove that Gendanken's soul can be saved is to save her soul. Ok, I'll stop reading the book now - sorry. This place is starting to bore me. I'm going to make a couple of thought provoking threads and stir up the soup.

--

Gendanken, if you want to be saved:

Live like a feral child. I swear, it's true.

 

[Mephura]

Gendanken,

Please forgive Woody. Sometimes we all speak out in anger. Patience is not a virtue that all of us have been blessed with.
The road to true faith and, thus, salvation can be a long and difficult one.
Please, feel free to turn to me, if you have any questions.

 

[§outh§tar]

Oh, and Invert, determinism isn't necessarily the order of the day.

Food isn't necessarily good for humans.
Humand do not necessarily have free will.
God is not necessarily omnipotent/moral.

I hate these little cop out words. So what is the 'order of the day' then?

 

[invert_nexus]

Southstar,

Do you blaspheme and say soteriology is not codified in formal language?

I'm a blasphemer from way back. That's how I am able to recognize another so well. Gendanken is beyond salvation. Just as I am. We all have our brief moments of weakness when we think to reach out and be held like a chld. Such is the situation Gendanken finds herself in now. But, if any were to successfully cradle her in such a way (which I don't think is going to happen. Especially with "Christians" like Woody around.) then she would quickly remember the contempt which drove her from the arms of God to begin with.

Ain't that right, Gendy?

Live like a feral child. I swear, it's true.

God bless the beasts and the children?
Aye. All those blissfully ignorant savages. God couldn't be so cruel as to force them into Hell, after all they've never even heard of Him. To do so would be the act of an Evil God. Or a cruel prankster.

And if He was a cruel prankster? Nothing wrong with that. But He hides His true nature. And not even in a cruel way. But in a cowardly way.

Loki and the Coyote. YHWH. What is the difference between the first two and the second?


Mephura,

I think if that is to be done, it will be done through a rational argument and not throwing faith and biblical passages at her.

Ah. Yes. Mephura. He who finds god logical.
I am Jehovah. A vulcan.
Ha!
That's really funny.

Your argument was something about how Logic exists. All things derive from God. Therefore God is Logical. Yes?
There are a lot more things in the world than Logic.
By your own logic. God is Illogic.
And a tapeworm.
And Satan.
And a boil on my ass.

I know it might seem a bit strange to speak of a rational argument concerning religion, but there is no reason why one can't exist.

You're right. In fact, there are many rational arguments concerning religion. But, what of them? They're 'rational' only because they're desperately trying to rationalize an illogical system.

You can't prove the existence of God. It can't be done. To do so would be to wipe out the Grace bestowed by Faith. I've not delved into the topic in a while and so don't have categorized lists of bible passages to prove what I'm saying, but I know there are verses that specifically state that Grace is achieved by Faith. Faith is impossible if you Know. In fact, this kinda puts all those people that actually Know God at a disadvantage to those who don't Know God and still Believe.

You could call that logical.
But it's based on illogic.
It's rationalization.
It's an argument convincing you to believe in something that will never ever show itself. That by definition refuses to show itself.
And it tells you to fuck off if you don't like it.

That's God.

But, of course, there are those like Woody who think that God does show Himself to them. He answers their prayers even.
So. Woody must be accursed by God because to know God is to lose Grace.
Poor Woody.
I'm not surprised God hates him though. Look at all the things he's done in this thread alone.

All logical systems start with at least one or two assumptions. Why should this be any different?

And they depend utterly upon that starting postulate. Take away that postulate and the whole house of cards tumbles down.

Building formal systems is a sure path to paralysis. We need the illogical for when the logical bogs down as it always does. The illogical gives us avenues of exploration that would never occur logically.

The consequence is mistakes.
Mistakes such as the presupposition of God.

Oh, and Invert, determinism isn't necessarily the order of the day.

No. It's not necessarily so. But, your original post was completely mired in it.


Meanwhile, back to topic.
Woody:

Have you at least prayed for Gendanken's soul?
Or is that too much for you too?
How about Water? Have you prayed for her?
Have you included your brother Mephura in your prayers?
Who do you pray for, Woody?
Yourself and those you love and are in your group?
Or do you pray for those who are against you. Who deceive and conspire against you?
Jesus had much to say on your sins, Woody.
No wonder God hates you.

 

[wesmorris]

Man there is an ad that constantly runs on a local radio station for a church. In it they say something to the effect of "You need to pray. You'll be better off if people pray for you! At our church, there are a lot of people who really KNOW how to pray. Just suck god's cock and he'll blast you with heavenly spooge... solving all your problems".

As IF?

"know how to pray"?

GIANT FUCKING ICK!!!!!!!

But then again, if you're stupid enough to buy into their load of ultimate horse-shit, by definition, you deserve it.

Whatever it takes to rationalize your way through the day.

Though I simply can't stand their flavor of rationalization, I do wish them well with it.

OH crap and I almost forgot. A month ago or something I was standing in a quickie mart out in the middle of nowhere, meeting my in-laws to pick up the family after they'd been up there visiting for a few days. They had a small strange collection of "books" from some hole in the wall publisher. One of them was "how to double your churches attendance", aimed at preachers and such.

OK that much right there gets the bile up a little.. tasting a little cud. It's a book about manipulation of those who would be manipulated. I read over a few pages. The only think I really remember was a valuable tidbit for emotionally manipulating the downtrodden (you know, in a "good way"). They said: "make sure you give everyone a job, no matter how insignificant" and went on about how that would make them feel like they belong.

Now I gotta say...

I don't mind manipulating people's emotions to make them feel better, because I'm basically a smile-a-holic. I make people laugh, smile, think.. etc. It's my thing and I love it.. the main difference to me is that the church is ignoring that fact that they are intentionally lying to do it. The whole concept of religion is supposed to be about making people better, I can dig that.. but the means is a total crock of shit that fucks up people's head SO bad that they can't separate total circular crocks from reason.

Thus: I hate those christians who are smart enough to know better, but evil enough to continue the lie. You people fucking SUCK.

 

[Dug-T]

I have a question to religious mentalists... what about all those poor african kids who fucking pray to your piss poor god and still suffer starvation and death at best .... amen fuckers....

 

[gendanken]

Well, Woody and company.

I was not planning to come back and post as it seems what's transpired here has gone beyond its intended purpose.
Here we are on page 15 in the course of not years or months but days and all because it centers around a timeless spectacle we call god.
The same happens with love and relationship threads.

Time to come clean- on page 11 of this monstrosity you will find:

"Yes, I WANT to believe that Jesus, almighty, the lamb of Christ, who came to this world to suffer the yoke of our sins and something really dirty I've been up to lately- was resurrected."

- gendanken

That was the most obvious clue, other than the insanity of stating I'm known for my thirsting for Jesus.
The something dirty I've been up to, Woody and Jenyar, is posting in this thread.
I do not care to know Jesus.
If it were up to me, I'd have accomplished the Judenrein.
I do not care to know what is required to kill reason.
I do not care to know God, nor Gautama, nor Allah nor Marduk other than to tap into the reasons for why mankind would willingly shackle its own hands.

Its easy to brush this obsessive compulsion aside by calling it Fear or Stupidity but that barely explains how a conscience would court nonsense as sense and still be capable of knowing the difference.
That's insane, yet it runs like a paranoid streak through mankind.

I've been here for two years and have only frequented the religion section once or twice for the same reason I pop into gay bars.
Curious amusement.

Cruel? Hardly. Christians know more about cruel than I ever will.

So why the change? Boredom.

To sum up, this thread has been a joke that's missed its punchline mostly (and may his soul rot in purgatory) because Mephura was absentia- hence my comment of woulda, coulda, but didn't.
Hence my being overtly petulant, beyond demanding and snooty- your faith requires you embrace me.

As to Mephura.

He is not a Christian and he posted here with the sole purpose of baiting any believer in here with a determinist platform.
The dilemma is as old as warfare- if you agreed with his first post then you essentially agree to no freedom.
If you agree to no freedom, then you have no free will.
But if you have fee will, then thy god is weak.
No freedom, know god.
Free will, willed god and therefore, no God at all.

He was then to reconsile both by claiming free will an illusion.
Which too, is inane.
To say choice is illusion is to know that it is one is to know that an unknowable plan exists apart from all that we know.
And you're all sitting there....knowing it.
Its a philosophy that disqualifies its very assertion.
This is why Kant has never made sense to me- and behold, he too was a Christian.


The whole point was to maneuver you all logically into a logical errors.
But an emotional guilt trip is what ensued instead.
I believe this is the first time I’ve witnessed such a thing,.

So there it is.
Will you sleep any better or worse for it? Will your food taste better in the mooring? Will your sex improve because Gendanken remains the miserable soul she's always been?


Of course not! You'll go on praying for things you don't even know the reason for wanting, like a job, or a car, or a nose job, or free tickets to Paris Hilton auctioning a chance to hold her $12,000 Gucci bag.
So on with your posting about god and free will and jesus and
mary and allah, I've had more than my fill.
And these posts have been so ...godammned long.

Sez woody:

Woody says: No wonder you can't win. You make yourself lose by cutting off any help someone can offer-- severing the lines of communication. What should you really expect from God with a bellicose, belligerent, belittling, short-tempered attitude toward others?

You say I don't care -- you are right because I don't care to hear anymore of this verbal abuse.

You can still save me, Woody.

 

[cole grey]

-With those two, I am casting my pearls before swine.

Your pearls are like a little child who plays with rocks, imagining them to be pearls. They are pearls to you, but YOUR pearls, aren't worth anything. When you use the word "MY pearls", you point out the root of the problem.
It is further evidenced by the discussion about snakelord's perfect little progeny.
Please don't pretend for one second that the method of complete lasseiz-faire child rearing would work on all children, that would be moronic.
YOUR method works for YOUR child.
The problem with religious people is that they think there is one method
by which all people will come to a relationship with God.

Water - There is more to this *should* than I like.

I said you should know by now.
There was not one ounce of condemnation in my statement. That was a personal statement to you and Gendanken. You said "show love". I was saying I already love both of you, what represents this?
It is kind of like the girlfriend (or boyfriend) who says, "show me you love me", when there are no events conspiring which would provide evidence.

-We are bad, we are bad, ha ha ha!
All my life Christians have given up on me -- because I am bad!
It is a kind of a sick relief, to know I have been snubbed because I am bad.
And bad I surely must be, for otherwise, I would have already accepted the Lord long, long ago. And it must be that God loves you, Christians, so much. For He has made sure that you would believe in Him, *just* *like* *that*, while years of study and prayer have done nothing for me. What a hideous monster I must be.

That's ok, you stay in your safe little definition of yourself, although you know it is inaccurate. If it helps to shield you from the grind of cognitive dissonance, so much the better for you.

Everyone here knows that Gendanken is a vile, hateful, mean, spiteful, evil bitch. She has the devil in her Herr Jenyar. I defy you to prove me wrong.

flattery will get you nowhere.

- Save her soul?
I think if that is to be done, it will be done through a rational argument and not throwing faith and biblical passages at her.

hahaha

-the only way to prove that Gendanken's soul can be saved is to save her soul.

A fool's errand.
Step up anyone, and try to cast YOUR pearls before Gendanken. If she is truly as bad as you say (she isn't), it is because she hasn't been loved (by herself) that she acts like a monster. Are you going to throw pearls of hate and contention? Don't bother.

P.S. regarding the bible's apparent inadequacies - there was this measure of weight called a "pim" which was unknown until the twentieth century. There is a verse which states its relation to plowshares or some such. It was mis-translated in the king james as "sharpening".
Should I care?
Enough of the bible has come down "accurately" for a person to synthesize valid positive ideas, even "faith", from it. If it is just "jesus loves me this I know, etc.", that is ok.

P.P.S.

"Dear god please give me £5 million pounds, omg thanks.. woopeee..
Fuck this thread is stupid... "
And -
Prayer doesn't work, because what you people pray to doesn't exist. "

1)You know what they say about people who are always bored?
2) I haven't read that exact post before more than 100 times, thanks for nothing.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Whew!!! You go girl!!!

 

[invert_nexus]

See guys. I told you she was Evil. But Woody knew that he couldn't trust her. Didn't he?
It's a pity that doesn't change the fact that he's failed his religion once more.
No wonder God hates him.


Gendanken,

Awww.

The whole point was to maneuver you all logically into a logical errors.
But an emotional guilt trip is what ensued instead.
I believe this is the first time I’ve witnessed such a thing,.

I think it's a shame I didn't take an interest sooner. I think the contrast between Meph and I might have produced some real results.

Of course, you realize that what would have happened if the venture had been successful is that you would have made the Christians more Christian. They would have been vindicated in their Faith.

I suppose, in a way, we have two prime examples of Christian behavior in here. Don't we?

Jenyar.
And Woody.

One performed according to his Faith admirably.
The other showed himself to be small and petty.

If there is a God, then God loves one.
And not the other.


As to the emotional guilt trip.
How could you expect otherwise?
That's what religion is.
Are you new?

You can still save me, Woody.

He won't. He can't. He can't even save himself.
But. Hey! He's got a job. It proves how much God hates him, don't you know.


Cole,

If she is truly as bad as you say (she isn't)...

*gasp*
Heresy.
I think it fair to say that Gendanken would have been burnt at the stake in Salem if she had been unfortunate enough to live there and then.
But. That's cool.

 

[Mephura]

too funny-



You reallllllllllllllly suck at timing.

Me??
You rushed the game in the first place then disregarded what I said in the second.
Then, just when things are getting fun you go and give away the whole game.
*bah*

No fun....

 

[cole grey]

No wonder God hates him.

running jokes are the funniest.

 

[gendanken]

Me??
You rushed the game in the first place then disregarded what I said in the second.

The 'game', Oh my brother, would have been had a funeral not stolen it from me.

So yeah *you*.

Then, just when things are getting fun you go and give away the whole game.
*bah*

No fun....

We can always point out that the gesture of clasping the hands together in prayer has its origins in prison and indentured slavery.

Speaking of which, I face Mecca twice a day and pray for boobs.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Speaking of which, I face Mecca twice a day and pray for boobs.

For some reason, I picture you with BIG boobs.

 

[Gustav]

baby
i like you just the way you are