Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

[tresbien]

MICHEAL
have u studiedthe American and English history.What did the church do about slavery:Eradication of INdians.Who tortured catholics in North iRELAND.ISLAM

You talk about polygamy,bear in mind that the latter is just a permission with conditions in islam not an obligation

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.


My response to the "Child Molester" lie against our beloved Prophet, Muhammad peace be upon him:
What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she got pregnant?

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. The case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETROTHED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. We Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".

"....it is possible that Mary gave birth to her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age...." (Source) [2]

Also, this paragraph was sent to me by brother Mike, who embraced Islam recently; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.

So if I want to be as silly and ridiculous as many of the Christians, I would respond to them by saying that Mary was psychologically and emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young age. And speaking of "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the Creator of this universe, then why did GOD allow himself to enter life through a 12-year old young girl's vagina? Please note that we Muslims love and respect Allah Almighty, Mary, Jesus and Allah's Message to the People of the Book (The Jews and Christians). In other words, we Muslims would never make fun of Christianity through such childish topic like this one as many ridiculous Christians do make fun of Islam through our Prophet's (peace be upon him) marriage.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

 

[Michael]

We are talking about the Afghan war/occupation, of which I recall you to be an avid supporter and even endorser. Most people in Gitmo are Afghans, Iraqis are held in Abu Ghraib.

I did support the invasion of Afghanistan but not the way that dick head Bush jr. handled it. At one time Bin Laden was completely surrounded and it would have been a snap to capture him but instead for some stupid reason the decision was made to allow the Afghan army to take Bin Laden. So, some guards were paid to look the other way and he escaped.

What I supported would have been his immediate capture. This means the “war” would have lasted, oh about 6 weeks tops. Then I would have supported us leaving then and there. This fiasco I did not and do not support. We should leave Afghanistan now, today is not soon enough. It’s a waste of time, energy, money, lives, etc…

Are you clear on what I did support. A six week offensive to capture Bin Laden. Nothing more than that.

Bush probably had his eye on the oil the whole time and couldn't capture Binnny Boy tooo soon. Oh, then what excuse would he have for invading Iraq to steal the oil.

Bush = arse face.

May I ask who those were? Did they state their opinion or did they want to enforce that opinion on the scientoglogists? Did they express their opinion on Mr. Hubbard not being a Prophet just like Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs dont believe the Prophet to be a real Prophet?

You may ask, if they want to pipe up and say something they are welcome to.

They said Mr. Hubbard was a science fiction writer, not a real Prophet, and that Scientology was a means to scam money form the gullible. And that Scientology is not a “real” religion.

Now, I’m not saying I disagree, I totally think this makes sense – except I don’t know if Ron really made it up to make money or if he really heard voices in his head and thought he was a prophet. I am 100% certain there is no God, so the question is did Mohammad make it up for some alternative reason or did he really hear some voices in his head – my guess is partly TLE (temporal lobe seizures).

Anyway, I’m simply saying it’s hypocritical to call Ron a scam artist and then turn around an whine when someone says something about Mohammad. And it is hypocritical.

Some time ago, a Christian friend of an Imam of one of our Mosques in Pakistan wanted to get some donatuons to research and write a book about how Islam was wrong and a fraud and the Prophet as well. The Imam not only donated but funded him. When asked why the Imam said: "I have faith. This man cannot disprove the truth." Now here you have a situation of an Imam funding a research by a Christian against Islam. Well, whoda thunk it eh?

That’s nice. Sounds like something I’d here from an evangelical Xian to tell you the truth. They always have these sorts of stories. I hope your Imam wasn’t hanging around a Pentecostal They LOVE to tell those antidotal stories. One of the reasons why there are now 500,000,000 Pentecostals. Yeah, I know, scary huh? They’ll take over Catholics soon.

No evidence exists or do you just not want to see it?

By evidence I mean scientific reproducible evidence. If you have some please start a thread and link it. Be specific and I don’t need a list of BS just ONE peace of evidence so simply pick the best one and link it. If not concede the point.

We have now? I have told you things that the Quran taught in a completely new perective.

Well at least we agree to that much. Yes, the Qur’an takes a new perspective. BUT, I don’t think a superior one. For one, it slams polytheists. For two, it resulted in the levying of tax based on belief (not at all the kind of Universality preached by evangelical Jews and then Xians nor Buddhist. I’d say a step backwards personally.) for three, it refers to people of the book – another line in the sand and finally it delineates Muslims from other religious people, yet another line.

Anyway, Scientology has a new take as Universal religion. So what? Yeah, we all came from another planet .. Xenu and DC12 airplanes. .. blah blah blah… To me the first to come up with the notion of Universality is the more important. Heck, anyone can take a new take on things. I could do it right now. Big deal.
One would think with a God speaking in your ear you’d, Oooo I don’t know, maybe have an all new and first time ever fantastic epiphany not just a rehash and new take on old ideas.

Do you get my point?

If there is a God and if this God is talking to you then you damn well should come up with something ALL NEW. If not then I think you are just copying other people's ideas with a new take. No different than Ron Hubbard and he got millions and millions of people to believe him too - all in what 20 years. Tells you something doesn't it?

Dont forget South Park chickened out and only gave the names of "John Smith" and "Jane Smith" instead of the real names of the makers otherwise there would have been lawsuits galore.

a) I thought that was part of the joke???

b) much better lawsuits than violence – agreed???

Muslims are not a race. If they were then inciting hatred against a race is racism and this Dutch politician should face the consequences for that. Islam is a culture-independent religion.

Islam is considered a violent religion only in the minds of those misled by the Western Media. That is the cold hard truth of it. But, thankfully, those people are in the minority. I dont dare to think what would happen if they actually got in power. I dont want to invoke Godwins law so ill just stop here.

I didn’t say Muslims are a race. I don’t believe in race – other than the human race.

Anyway, many Chinese have a very poor opinion of Muslims. Are you going to say Western media somehow influence Communist China – hardly. (the same is true for Thai, Japanese, Koreans – ooo, especially after that preacher and the young boy had their heads chopped off)


RE: Jizya tax

It was certainly leveled against non-Muslims, so we can talk about the History of Jizya and why it is wrong.

RE: Slavery, we can still talk about the history. And I on both accounts you are being an apologist. Which is at least a step in the right direction. It is acknowledging such things are wrong – which is good. Now it’s all about reinterpreting history so that such things never happened. That’s fine. Mohammad didn’t own a Slave. Good because we both agree Slavery is wrong. Mohammad didn’t have more than one wife. Good because polygamy is bad for social equality. Mohammad didn’t harm anyone. Good because murder is the wrong way to settle disagreements. Mohammad never fought against the polytheists – good now we’re getting somewhere. Mohammad is not the Last Prophet. Good. Mohammad was no better than any other man. Good. The Qur’an is not any better or any worse than other peoples superstitious book. Good, yes, tolerance I like it.


See, we can not get to these great points if we don’t open up a dialog!


Michael

 

[Michael]

RE: Bin Laden,

I happy that many Muslims have taken a stand against violence. Now they need to just keep standing. ALL VIOLENCE is wrong. War is NEVER the solution. Even if it means completely altering Islamic history so that war never ever took place. Do it.

Michael

 

[Michael]

tresbien, firstly, you do know I am not Xian? I barely see a difference between Xianty and Islam. Pretty much the same.

have u studied the American and English history.

Yes, I understand their Histories. As you may notice I am not a fan of The Age of Exploration and the ensuing Slavery that took place. Funny thing is, I notice that those people back then take the same intolerant attitude about their religion as I even the most liberal Muslims take here.

They MUST be right. It was their destiny the entire world be Xian and the entire world would be better for it. Only in their world God spoke English and the Bible was the Perfect word of God.

I’d dare say it was and is a mental sickness really.

You talk about polygamy,bear in mind that the latter is just a permission with conditions in islam not an obligation

Yes I agree the Old Testament is full of shit and thank the Gods and Godesses and Xenu we’re moved past it socially.

OK, as long as we agree the polygamy is BAD for social equality I think we can move on. Do we agree?

My response to the "Child Molester" lie against our beloved Prophet, Muhammad peace be upon him:
What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she got pregnant?

I do not think Mohammad was a child molester or else he would have set about surrounding himself with Children. He did not do that so logically he was not a child molester. BUT, a truly enlightened person would have adopted the girl as a daughter and raised her with his ONE wife. This would have alleiviated the suffering of many CHILDREN in the future that HAVE been the prey of pedophiles – which, believe it or not, exist in ALL societies. Lets not give a mentally sick person in the modern world any more of an excuse – agreed???

What about Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was she when she got pregnant?

I don’t believe there even was a Jesus so you tell me. How old does the Myth make Mary out to be?

(note: Mary simply means mother it’s from the root word Ma which is the first noise babies make naturally. Hence Mary is the Mother of the Mythical Jesus. Where in the Hell Japanese came up with OKaaSan is anyone’s guess!)

Anyway, I hope I made the point,
Michael

 

[tresbien]

PLS WATCH THE REASON BEHIND MARRYING AICHA WITH THE PROPHET MOHAMED MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGmAGT-cyuI&feature=related

 

[(Q)]

I suppose you are unaware of the fact that detainees released from Gitmo have been appearing on television in Pakistan (and hence Afghanistan) detailing their abuse?

Is that a reality show or game show?

And that many "immigrants" in Europe are refugees from Afghanistan as well.

Will they also be appearing on the show?

Afghan Idol?

 

[S.A.M.]

Is that a reality show or game show?



Will they also be appearing on the show?

Afghan Idol?

Is that what it takes for torture and detention to be taken seriously in the west?

 

[S.A.M.]

I did support the invasion of Afghanistan but not the way that dick head Bush jr. handled it. At one time Bin Laden was completely surrounded and it would have been a snap to capture him but instead for some stupid reason the decision was made to allow the Afghan army to take Bin Laden. So, some guards were paid to look the other way and he escaped.

What I supported would have been his immediate capture. This means the “war” would have lasted, oh about 6 weeks tops. Then I would have supported us leaving then and there. This fiasco I did not and do not support. We should leave Afghanistan now, today is not soon enough. It’s a waste of time, energy, money, lives, etc…

Are you clear on what I did support. A six week offensive to capture Bin Laden. Nothing more than that.

Bush probably had his eye on the oil the whole time and couldn't capture Binnny Boy tooo soon. Oh, then what excuse would he have for invading Iraq to steal the oil.

Bush = arse face.

IOW, you find it more convenient to invade a country rather than provide evidence for involvement in a crime.

How nice.

 

[(Q)]

Is that what it takes for torture and detention to be taken seriously in the west?

No, but it takes a hell of a lot more for you to be taken seriously. :blbl:

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm gonna take the high road here.

 

[Michael]

IOW, you find it more convenient to invade a country rather than provide evidence for involvement in a crime.

How nice.

I'm not sure of your point: Are you suggesting Bin Laden was not involved in the events of 9/11? This isn't an opening for a debate on 9/11 just whether that is your point.

I think Bin Laden was involved as a main player hence my support for a 6 week operation to capture him.

 

[Michael]

Also, the Muslim who spoke out against Scientology,

I still did not understand what you meant by the phrase "spoke out"?

 

[S.A.M.]

So your thinking is sufficient cause for an invasion?

I think there is no evidence for bin Ladens involvement in 9/11

Why don't you do some research and let me know who's thinking holds more water?

 

[S.A.M.]

I still did not understand what you meant by the phrase "spoke out"?

It means that I want to know if that Muslim is willing to make caricatures of Ron Hubbard and publish them on the internet.

Personal opinions are different from public ridicule.

While I may not believe in many things I see no reason to ridicule those who do.

 

[Mr.Spock]

I still did not understand what you meant by the phrase "spoke out"?

shes talking about me?

 

[Michael]

PLS WATCH THE REASON BEHIND MARRYING AICHA WITH THE PROPHET MOHAMED MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGmAGT-cyuI&feature=related

Yes I watched the video and I disagree that puberty equates with adulthood. But I know also that things were viewed differently. I simply think that if there were a God and if this God were clever then he'd see to it that a Prophet didn't have sex with a small child simply because she had her period and could reproduce. This is because it sets a positive example. Now, sure, lots of people in society will continue to have sex with women as soon as they can reproduce. But by setting a positive example, such as ADOPTING the girl as a daughter then in the future civilized people may act civilized. That is if you think, as I do, that a period does not equate to an adult (as the person on the video stated it does, this means if a 7-9 year old happens to menstruate early, which can indeed happen (even a 6 year once gave birth) that such a CHILD is now equal to an ADULT and is able to have a fulfilling sexual relationship with a man. ALSO, a forward thinking person would not practice polygamy. He would simply support the women until, or if, they could find a husband or make their own way.

But this all goes back to "the real world" huh. That's the classic Islamic apologists approach. In the "real world" it's not possible to manage under monogamy. In the "real world" slavery is the norm, and "back then" having a sexual relationship with a 9 year old menstruating child is fine and dandy.

Hence to this day in Islamic counties women do not have the rights of men and menstruating children are still married.

And that's the sad fact of it.


A truly enlightened and forward thinking person would have recognized that to set a positive example for humanity is much better than moving with the herd because that's the present norm.

Michael

NOTE: I did NOT suggest Mohammad was a pedophile just a normal nomadic arab doing what all the other arabs were ding at the time.

 

[Mr.Spock]

huh, bless the different system of morality. dont forget, you cant judge them.

A man and child being stoned to death.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats clearly a misuse of power.

IDF soldiers who twist and break arms and legs of four year olds are not much different.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909589.html

So we do a first patrol with him. It's 6 A.M., Rafah is under curfew, there isn't so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers. We all run with him. He grabbed the boy. Nufar, I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist. Broke his hand at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock ... The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

Are they?

 

[Mr.Spock]

Thats clearly a misuse of power.

IDF soldiers who twist and break arms and legs of four year olds are not much different.

thats not your relative being stoned i guess, a non muslim perhaps?

 

[Michael]

Anyway, people should be able to mock the founder of Islam just as much as they mock Bush or Buddha or Jesus or whomever. Many times I refer to God as She, sometimes people take a serious offense to this (as if God has a sausage and beans .. pfff too funny) other times I refer to God as It, as It is sexless, this again elicits a negative response. It's obviously not a He nor a She nor a human so It is fine.

I should be able to make such statements without fear of my life.