Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

Carcano said:
The Christian doctrine of atonement describes how God becomes man...for the purpose of suffering on the cross in atonement for all men....thus closing the gap between the perfection of God and the imperfection of man.

God cannot suffer, and so has to become man to atone for man.

This idea was vaguely conceived by Paul, not Jesus, and was hammered out into legalistic doctrine by the Catholic church centuries later.
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That sounds like a sound basis for creating a power base- atonement being necessarily directed at someone or something.
 
S.A.M. said:
Personally, I disagree with the message. Why should someone else be accountable for my mistakes?
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I'm not an expert but I think the part where you ask for forgiveness is where you acknowledge your mistakes and account for them.

I mean, given the idea there was no Jesus and is no God, it seems like a modern version of self-help. Forgiving someone can profoundly impact on a persons life. Not to do so can feel like a weight. I think this part of the Xian message is really OK for people at certain times in their lives. The rest seems like crap.

S.A.M. said:
How does that make sense?
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Haaa - from a theist :p

Yeah, it doesn't make sense from a religous point of view but from a personal point of view coming at the problem at a certain time, well, it makes as much sense as advice from a therapist.


Imagine a therapist says to forgive your wife/husband. Even if you divorce you should still forgive them. They client says: THAT doesn't make sense, they cheated on me!

Well, maybe it doesn't make sense but lo-and-behold it is good advice.

S.A.M. said:
Islam is less complicated for me. Everything is one,
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I suppose Greek philosophers said the same thing.

S.A.M. said:
You're not accountable for what other people do and while some human failings necessitate latitude that incorporates human desires and reactions, its better to put it behind you and move on. Now thats logical to me.
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Probably for many people that's works for most things. But, there may come a time, the Gods forbid, that moving on isn't going to cut it. At that time people commit murder, get cancer, explode, implode, etc.... that's where the forgivenesses comes in.

I'm pretty sure Native Americans used animal guides in just such a way... they also believed in a Oneness ... it must be a common allegory most civilized people postulate.
 
Forgiving someone can profoundly impact on a persons life. Not to do so can feel like a weight.
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Only if you're conditioned to the notion of hanging on to your sins and expecting atonement. Most Muslims are not. If you cannot forgive, you can demand reparation. The victim decides what is just, not the criminal. Just because you expect forgiveness or want/need it does not oblige me to provide it. If I am the one who is wronged, I have the right to demand you pay.
 
Kadark said:
Sounds like a very foreign conception of "Oneness" to me; certainly not anything I've come to find within Islam.
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Explain "Oneness" as you know it.

Kadark said:
Isn't this the part where you storm in saying, "Isn't that a given?" or "I'd be surprised if you could even find a culture that doesn't take such an opinion"? For some reason, when it comes to the central message in Christianity, you call it "a very very powerful message". Do I sense a double-standard here?
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Well, firstly, the message is NOT Xian in origin. It's a copy, adaptation and evolution of earlier religous beliefs.

Second, I do think it's very influential, but I also find it a worry at times.In terms of cult-like brainwashing, I'd say it's effective. Wouldn't you?

I wonder what the Scientology hook is?


Anyway, I am asking what the "message" in Islam is. I don't think that's attacking the beleif, especially given I say the same things about Xiantiy.
 
S.A.M. said:
Only if you're conditioned to the notion of hanging on to your sins and expecting atonement. Most Muslims are not. If you cannot forgive, you can demand reparation. The victim decides what is just, not the criminal. Just because you expect forgiveness or want/need it does not oblige me to provide it. If I am the one who is wronged, I have the right to demand you pay.
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Yeah, that's one way to look at it. But, as Kadark also pointed out, forgiveness is a universal concept. Not a Xian one. It just so happens that Xianity also has this as it's central "theme" (I mean in the New Testament). The God of the old Testament is, as anyone can tell you, a complete arsehole.
 
Michael said:
Yeah, that's one way to look at it. But, as Kadark also pointed out, forgiveness is a universal concept. Not a Xian one. It just so happens that Xianity also has this as it's central "theme" (I mean in the New Testament). The God of the old Testament is, as anyone can tell you, a complete arsehole.
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Other people dying for their sins appears to have worked well for them. They even ensure it happens on a regular enough basis that they don't lose practice.
 
If you believe in sin. Think about it. Biblical sin is a bunch a bullshit. Biblical morality probably wasn't compatible with many European cultures. Even something as simple as clothing. Think about how the Greeks clothed themselves/half nude compared with the semi-burkaed Jews in the ME.

So, it actually is clever to let people off the hook easily for "sinning". Especially given that many sins are idiotic.

Not that this is a Xian idea. The notion of a half-God sacrificing himself for the good humanity is as old as "The Hero" sacrificing himself for the good of his people. Surely you can see how such a concept is an archetype?

Anyway, back to Islam, does everyone agree that the central message is either:
i) "own it"
ii) "monotheism"
iii) "Oneness"

?
Michael
 
Also, while Xianity is a plagiarism, think again about 'forgiving'.
Given that Jesus is making a sacrifice and forgiving people of their sin, via death, the ultimate act, doesn't it stand to reason that therefor the act of "forgiving" can be held as a lofty goal? Hence, some day down the line people are then able to hold up the act of forgiving as a peaceful example to attempt to attain? I mean, when the God-Man of your religion does it in death, it only seems fitting that a King or neighbor can do it in life?

Anyway, so, what again was the central theme of Islam?

There is One God and It says you must own it?
 
Expecting forgiveness as in it's a forgone conclusion misses the point completely. Actually, it kind of shoes that the person is not sincere in their apology - IMO.

Forgiving is what is important. And I mean truly forgiving.

Apologizing is also important. I think the religous word is repent? atone?

Anyway, the Xian religion in addition to being monotheistic also centralized on these concepts
 
In religous terms? Back when I was Xian I saw it had a significant effect on people.

In life terms? Yup.
 
So, now that you've had some time to think about this aspect of your religous beleif -what would you say is the central tenant? (given that yes it's not polytheism or UFOlogy) What's the main message in Islam? I mean, expound on your previous attempt.
 
I already told you what the central message was: the Oneness of Allah. Believing in Allah is the most important thing a human can ever do. Everything else somebody does, both good and bad, are secondary.
 
Think of this Kadark. Suppose we replace the word Allah with the word Xenu. Now, I know you HATE when we discuss this ..but just think about what you are saying for a minute.

Second, please explain "oneness".

Thirdly, my point about the Xian religion is at it's heart it has this story of an archetype God-man who like the 'Hero' scarifies his life for humanity all turning on this pivot of forgiveness. That's the myth anyway. So, I am wondering if you can elaborate on "oneness" and what it means for you.

Also, do you know how is Islamic "oneness" unique when compared with Greek or Hindu or Buddhist 'Oneness'?
 
Second, please explain "oneness".
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Duh! It means allah is the only one, just allah, just him, one, lonely, by himself. Of course the existence of anything else kinda puts an end to the idea of "oneness". I think he means.. "the one and only god" or perhaps that everything is a part of that one god - dog sputum and allah are one and the same thing. I'm unsure which. If it's the former I suppose he best stand in line - there's many different onenesses making the same claim. If however it is the latter... :shrug:
 
Kadark said:
I already told you what the central message was: the Oneness of Allah. Believing in Allah is the most important thing a human can ever do. Everything else somebody does, both good and bad, are secondary.
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Yes, definately belief in God, Tawheed, is the main tenant of Islam. The belief that there is one God, who is perfect, and who is the Creator, Sustainer, and provider.

If one wishes to know what Oneness in Islam means, you have many resources in the internet to explain it.

By asking the same question over and over, it seems as if he is trying to make a point rather than simply to learn a definition of Oneness.

There are many resources if you want to know. Please research yourself.
 
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